A Westerner's rant on some really bad motorcycle (and other vehicle) habits - Page 2 - xBhp.com : The Global Indian Biking Community

The Mountain · 11-07-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raghu_scsa316

Law enforcement is a joke in this country. The pays suck, so cops are either fat 45 year olds or skinny 20 year olds either of who are in it due to the lack of options and 'extortion' privileges. Its highly unlikely that things will change even the slightest over the next couple of decades.

I disagree. It's not the police's responsibility to force you to be a better driver. It's your responsibility as a driver to follow the rules even when the police aren't around. As the saying goes, "ethics is what you do when no one is looking". It's attitudes like this which are the reason so few people wear helmets: "I only wear a helmet when I ride past a cop, because I don't want a ticket", which is why we see such idiocy as that "Mentos" ad with the guy who tries to sneak past a checkpoint by wearing a watermelon shell for a helmet. If you see no other reason to wear a helmet than to avoid tickets, you probably shouldn't be riding a bike, and maybe shouldn't be on the road at all. If you think the only way you're going to drive better is if you face stiff fines if you don't, I don't want to be on the road near you. The majority of the basic "rules of the road" are there for a reason, and are not just arbitrary imposition of authority.

That said, yes there are probably a lot of drivers here who won't follow the rules (at least at first) until it starts hitting them in the wallet. The police do need to do a better job of consistently enforcing traffic regulations. If they cracked down hard, they'd be busy for a few months, but after that, people would start to follow the rules on their own once they see the benefits, and the cops would just need to continue to enforce things consistently (which wouldn't be much work for them once everyone is following the rules). I'd like to think, though, that most Indian drivers would have the discipline and self-accountability to start doing things right on their own; that the lack of discipline is a result of ignorance (which is not shameful, and can be cured), not stupidity (which is reprehensible, and can't be fixed).

Haroon · 11-07-2011, 12:36 PM

I fully agree with TheMountain on the pathetic riding conditions in India and sadly, I dont see anything changing in the future as well.

Few specialities of Indian driving:

Indian traffic at best is described as - Organized chaos...

Vehicle with the loudest horn gets the right of way...

In the west you blow your horn if the driver in front of you has done something stupid. Whereas in India you blow your horn to warn that you are about to do something stupid...

Stop, Yield signs etc are mere symbols the colonial rulers may have forgotten behind...

prajwalkashyap · 11-07-2011, 02:38 PM

Put up a bunch of cameras and track the violators with hefty fines (like penalize 3K for jumping signals) and you'll see a drastic change in the traffic discipline. You see, implementation of rules is as important as expectations of road users to be disciplined. Traffic discipline in USA, Europe, Australia, Singapore are so high, not without strict implementations. During my stay in Florida, I would repeatedly see traffic violators even on the interstates, speeding being the most common violation. I saw this in Melbourne, Aus, as well. When users know that there was no camera and no one watching, signal jumping, overtaking by getting into the wrong side of the road was common. If and when caught, they'd end up paying $250, even for jumping signals!

My point is, implementation of rules is as important as self-discipline. Without one, the other won't work. The self-discipline will come when the wallet pinches.

Prajwal

raghu_scsa316 · 11-07-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mountain

....

I'm not sure if you used 'you' as an arbitrary pronoun or as a pointer at me, but at no point did I hint that I maintain a dual morality. How did you even arrive at that?
In your second paragraph, you seem to agree with my views on how 'cops being strict' is ultimately the genesis of the change we want. That was pretty much all I said.

abhijitkn · 11-07-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mountain

Of course things like the road conditions and culture are different. I understand that. My issue is that there's really no excuse for the poor vehicle operation. 50 years ago, the US road infrastructure was as primitive as it is here in India now, and yet traffic there was never as chaotic as it is here. If everyone took the same attitude you have, nothing would ever get better. My rant up there was a call to stop just doing what everyone else is doing, just because everyone else is doing it. This same kind of attitude is the reason there are piles of trash along the roads and in vacant lots everywhere. Everyone sees everyone else doing it, so they all assume it's ok to do. Just imagine how much more pleasant the roads would be if everyone stayed in their lane, drove at or near the speed limit, and otherwise observed traffic regulations.
Right now, the max speed limit on most roads here is a paltry 50km/h. Even on the National Highways. It takes a couple of hours for me to get from Bhubaneswar to Paradip. This is a combination of the limits being set based on older cars with non-power drum brakes (50km is allegedly as fast as you can go and still have a safe stopping distance; though modern cars with power disc brakes can stop safely at much higher speeds) and the fact that road conditions are so chaotic that its not really safe to go faster, because some people insist on riding scooters and small bikes at 30km on these highways. However, I've driven roads in the US which are the equivalent of the NH system here, and the limits on those roads in the US is sometimes as high as 120km/h, and a lot of them are 100km/h. Imagine if the limit on the NH could be raised even to 80km/h or 100km/h. Imagine if the major roads in your city rolled along at 60km/h, instead of a sluggish 40. That's possible, but only once people start understanding how to behave on the road.
It's too much to ask everything to change overnight, but there are 30,000 riders on this site. That's enough people to start making a difference. Even when you're not on your bike, drive correctly; if riding in someone else's car, encourage them in proper driving habits. Don't just go along with everyone else, or we'll never get the kind of traffic you see in places like Japan, Singapore, Europe, or the US.

Wait a minute. I think you misunderstood what I meant. Neither I asked you to ride erratically or insanely nor I drive/ride that way.
But there are exceptions when you have to follow the traffic for e.g. most of the time you see people driving through the intersection before 5 seconds the lights go green (for pedestrians to cross), now there is no point in stopping & wait for green light (unless pedestrians are crossing) while the rest of the traffic is moving. I move only because I know I'm holding back the traffic & some frustrated driver would just hit me from behind.
Again I'm not asking you to cross the limit line before anybody else. This is just one of the case.
In US people obey the rules not only because they are responsible but the cost of violation is too high. Otherwise penalties wouldn't have been so high. for speeding $300 + -ve points on your license impacting insurance. In India that is not the case, the penalties are not costly (sometimes nil if you are politically influenced) so some people don't obey the rules. Look at Mumbai what they have done to the drunken drivers...suspended licenses...now before drink & drive people think twice. Same with the helmet rule.
Also few years before Mumbai Traffic Police used to catch people for changing lanes at intersections, not having RVMs, but now I don't see that often. Now I surprised to see interactions without limit lines & zebra crossing also somehow the lane marking on Mumbai highways (suburb) have disappeared.
What you have written is exactly what DMV says, but what I meant was things work differently here which we have to accept & ride accordingly otherwise it will add up to the frustration & cause more problems.
My riding style is not going to influence someone else to drive the way I do unless I teach him how to ride/drive. We can enforce someone to wear a helmet & safety gear but how to drive/ride is that individual's own responsibility.
Only one thing we need that is awareness as well as discipline & enforcement of laws & implement them strictly will only solve the problem. People should think of cost before breaking the law.

diffuser911 · 11-08-2011, 07:46 PM

Mountain: Given your location is Bhubaneshwar, I am not surprised about the nature of complaints, specially the one about driving on the wrong side. It seems to be in the city's DNA, and its not only old people for whom its too late to learn who are doing this. Take half an hour, stand by the divider break in front of Chandrashekharput Petrol pump and you will see that the country's future (and lots of them) are risking their lives as well. I tried standing by the rules and I felt quite happy at times when I saw others doing that too, even the oldies.

tazz · 11-08-2011, 08:54 PM

Cultural differences has nothing to do with anything here, and you don't have to be a westerner to get frustrated with this kind of stuff, some of us Indians feel the same way.

xxbomb · 11-08-2011, 09:25 PM

the traffic scene in Bangalore had been the most disturbing of what ive witnessed(leaving certain places like UP). 3 or 4 years earlier there was no sign of riding sense at all. Be it a LMV/HTV or a two wheeler, No1 cared about others as long as they go ahead.

*thankfully* since the traffic police are getting more rigid by the day, there is a better sense of driving, but it needs a lot(really lot) of improvement.

icemang · 11-16-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haroon

I fully agree with TheMountain on the pathetic riding conditions in India and sadly, I dont see anything changing in the future as well.

Few specialities of Indian driving:

Indian traffic at best is described as - Organized chaos...

Vehicle with the loudest horn gets the right of way...

In the west you blow your horn if the driver in front of you has done something stupid. Whereas in India you blow your horn to warn that you are about to do something stupid...

Stop, Yield signs etc are mere symbols the colonial rulers may have forgotten behind...

Multiple pluses

sun105 · 11-16-2011, 08:48 PM

fully agree with the mountain

11-07-2011, 12:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
Haroon RIDE for PASSION Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bangalorean, but now in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia Posts: 794	I fully agree with TheMountain on the pathetic riding conditions in India and sadly, I dont see anything changing in the future as well. Few specialities of Indian driving: Indian traffic at best is described as - Organized chaos... Vehicle with the loudest horn gets the right of way... In the west you blow your horn if the driver in front of you has done something stupid. Whereas in India you blow your horn to warn that you are about to do something stupid... Stop, Yield signs etc are mere symbols the colonial rulers may have forgotten behind... __________________ Growing old is compulsory - growing up is optional *So many roads, So little time* RIDE for PASSION See us & our rides at: www.rideforpassion.com

11-07-2011, 02:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
prajwalkashyap Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 670	Put up a bunch of cameras and track the violators with hefty fines (like penalize 3K for jumping signals) and you'll see a drastic change in the traffic discipline. You see, implementation of rules is as important as expectations of road users to be disciplined. Traffic discipline in USA, Europe, Australia, Singapore are so high, not without strict implementations. During my stay in Florida, I would repeatedly see traffic violators even on the interstates, speeding being the most common violation. I saw this in Melbourne, Aus, as well. When users know that there was no camera and no one watching, signal jumping, overtaking by getting into the wrong side of the road was common. If and when caught, they'd end up paying $250, even for jumping signals! My point is, implementation of rules is as important as self-discipline. Without one, the other won't work. The self-discipline will come when the wallet pinches. Prajwal __________________ www.youtube.com/user/prajwalkashyap

11-08-2011, 07:46 PM	#16 (permalink)
diffuser911 Sunil Singh Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bahrain! Posts: 1,162	Mountain: Given your location is Bhubaneshwar, I am not surprised about the nature of complaints, specially the one about driving on the wrong side. It seems to be in the city's DNA, and its not only old people for whom its too late to learn who are doing this. Take half an hour, stand by the divider break in front of Chandrashekharput Petrol pump and you will see that the country's future (and lots of them) are risking their lives as well. I tried standing by the rules and I felt quite happy at times when I saw others doing that too, even the oldies. __________________ My '08 Suzuki GSX650F Escapade to the Eastern Ghats Orissa 1302 My BlackBull - Bullet Electra 5S

11-08-2011, 09:25 PM	#18 (permalink)
xxbomb Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: bangaloooooru Posts: 481	the traffic scene in Bangalore had been the most disturbing of what ive witnessed(leaving certain places like UP). 3 or 4 years earlier there was no sign of riding sense at all. Be it a LMV/HTV or a two wheeler, No1 cared about others as long as they go ahead. thankfully since the traffic police are getting more rigid by the day, there is a better sense of driving, but it needs a lot(really lot) of improvement. __________________ One Heart -- CBR 250R

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11-08-2011, 08:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
tazz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Mumbai Posts: 146	Cultural differences has nothing to do with anything here, and you don't have to be a westerner to get frustrated with this kind of stuff, some of us Indians feel the same way.

11-16-2011, 08:48 PM	#20 (permalink)
sun105 i do not drive fast others are slow Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: dehradun Posts: 34	fully agree with the mountain

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