TenHut

What I said was also regarding street riding and not track riding. Not using brakes in a corner is a street technique...trail braking is a track technique and I support it only on a track.

If riding in the mountains then you certainly need not use brakes in corners at all. Not a street technique. 'Reducing radius' corners exist both on the track and on the streets and giving gas on street or track doesn't increase the radius of the curve your bike is describing. Going OFF the throttle/reducing throttle actually results in you going into the opposite lane as that increases the radius. Only way to maneuver and stay in your lane is what Niks suggested. Counter-steer some more.
All the more reason to not ignore the fundamentals that work on track and street both.
Front will never go light in a corner. Your rear will loose traction and high side you way before your front gets light. Riding into a corner, the worry is about taking pressure off the front as you low side when front folds due to too much load on it. The idea is to take load off it...not give it more load. Giving throttle does just this.

That said...learning this on forums is probably a very bad idea.

When you see fast riders coming out of a corner with a wheelie in lean its the front going light but that don't matter at all and the rider doesn't crash.

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nav75

Why so?
Cornering on street/track, there is hardly any difference when entering a corner. As on street, you have a clear view of the corner entry just like track. Not sure why we can't trail brake into a corner on a street.

Regarding use of rear brake in corner. Check out the following URL
Tips for cornering on your motorcycle
goto section "Braking in a corner"

Then what we should do, if we realize that we have entered a corner too fast and there is a vehicle coming in on-coming lane?

If accelerating when leaned over in a turn doesn't increase the turning radius then why don't we go flat out in the turn?
As I said earlier, let me repeat, For a faster speed in corner:
- we either have to take a wider line, OR
- we have to lean the bike more.
There is only upto a limit that you can lean your bike (more so on street, safely). So, while the bike is leaned to max, and you accelerate, won't you start running wide?

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niks_devil666

thats incorrect. trail braking can be done on the street too.
yes u need to brake in the mountains too.
"once you've set your lean angle you can tighten your line by simply reducing your speed or widen your cornering arc by increasing it; without ever changing your lean angle."

Read more: Controlling Your Cornering Arc With The Throttle - Sport Rider Magazine
once u start accelerating , the rear starts taking load and will reduce load at front which can save u from a crash if the bike is leaned too much (overloaded front).


some links which can be referred here for mid corner braking and corrections (other than what Nav suggested)

Motorcycle Riding Corner Tips Skills Series - Sport Rider

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TenHut

Its so because trail braking is the reason why even the likes of rossi crash when going into the turn. This they do on the circuit which has excellent pavement and have excellent tyres and excellent machines and suspension setup. Yet it is difficult to judge when trail braking goes down and will take you down with you. Since going down on the streets can mean a near death experience trail braking has now become obsolete method to ride on streets. Its too much risk for too little reward and isn't suggested by any Motorcycle Safety Foundation school nor CSS. Remember that riding knowledge evolves with the increase in our understanding of handling and improvements in chasis and tyre technologies. Old notions sometimes will have to be discarded.
That's using the rear brake to hold a line tighter. That is tbh not the same as trail braking as the intention is not to shrub off speed when using rear brake. Trail braking means scrubbing speed. Americans use their rear brakes a lot. Nicky Hayden has a huge rear disc while Pedrosa has an almost non existent rear brake disc on his bike (compare pics given a chance). Using rear brake in a corner percolates from a whole different riding style..the one suited for dirt...the one where all american riders come from.
What you do then is entirely upto what school of thought you are following and what works for you. In general the idea is to add more lean and keep the throttle atleast at 'maintenance throttle' or get on gas. Even the link you posted says not to cut throttle off so it can be safely assumed that you shouldnt brake with front either. Cause that's the same as cutting throttle..basically loading front.
Because the contact patch at full lean will only give you that much amount of traction. You will run flat out of traction.

Come CSS session and I will see you change this opinion of yours. Ofc you can brake in mountains. Adding lean angle to brakes or vice versa = VERY BAD!
You're probably right in that you aren't close to the limit of traction yet..when you get closer this could really cost you and it is that scenario that you are trying to avoid by adhering to the "no trail brake" principle. Its not if you can do it or not...whether you should or not.
1. A max lean bike is not equal to an overloaded front. It just means suspension is no longer working optimally and the whole chasis becomes your suspension (chasis flex). Loaded front is due to braking or suddenly chopping the throttle.
2. Your "once you start accelerating" argument holds no water because in case you are not accelerating then you need to take more load OFF the front.

Once again, the slight brakes that you feel like using when in a corner gets termed as 'teddy bear' braking as its serves the purpose of comforting you. This will be banned at CSS for first 2 days and is now an obsolete method of braking.
Level three at CSS also touches on moving around on the bike without upsetting the chassis , while manipulating the geometery of the bike to change your line. This will be your answer to tightening your line when already leaned over. The Hook turn will be one such technique. They too will ask you to leave your brakes and throttle alone. If you had seen the animated explanation of why a bike actually goes wide when you go OFF the throttle in a turn on Twist of the Wrist Part II DVD, you would be convinced that the old notions need to be shed.
What I am saying isn't my opinion. Its just some knowledge imparted to me and I am by now sure that this gets considered as the bible in the sport motorcycling world today.

Those who wanna trail brake go ahead do it. Its not like I don't do it. I sometimes have to..but that doesn't mean its a healthy practice.

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trustvishwas

Look at the can of worms Shrinath has opened up with one question.

Now imagine whole lot more questions to come up from him Scary isn't it?

How can you actually see what another rider is doing while entering a corner? If you are riding behind him, you would be concentrating on your bike and your corner rather than him. If you are standing on side of the road, you will not see all these actions. If you are riding ahead of him, you will not be able to see all this in your RVM.

How does the question of me disappearing relevant here? I said that Nav & Niks were present. I have said again and again that I don't know how to corner so asking me your amazing queries would not help you at all.

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nav75

Leaning a bit too much is also a reason why MotoGP racers go down. Do we stop leaning on streets?
No. Its only when they push beyond the limit they crash.

Does everyone who trail brakes, crashes?
No. Its only when they push beyond the limit they crash.

It is only when, looking for that extra fraction of second, the racers try to push the limits, that's when they often crash.
On streets, we never ever should get close to that limit.


I never said, trail braking is same as using the rear brake in a corner. They are two different things and I never mixed them.
As you said, "NEVER use your brakes at any part of the corner." That's when I mentioned about trail braking, as another instance of braking while in a turn, along with using rear when in a turn (two different things). The reason why I mentioned of using rear brake, was to scrub off speed while in a turn.
Let me again quote of what's written on the link:
If you are pressing a brake, one basic purpose of using brake is to cut speed (irrespective of if bike is going straight or leaned into a corner), so it will "scrub off speed" even with constant accelerator. And that's what it will do above as well, without any issues.
And that's what I said, very much in the begining. You can use rear brake, very softly, while in a corner to scrub off some speed without much of an issue.


I never said use front brake, when leaned into a corner. I was talking about using only the rear, the reason mentioned in the above para.
In mountains, in India, often you have to stay towards the left side of the road because of oncoming traffic in the opposite lane, many times who happen to run wide in corners. That you happen to notice while you are into the corner, in those corners where you can't see the exit at the time of entry.
Then, instead of adding more lean angle, with normal not-so-soft tyres on normal Indian bikes (often tyres are also on-off kinds, that you can't afford to lean much either) you got to scrub off speed, instead of adding more lean.
Another reason for not adding more lean on streets is that, the more lean you add, the lesser you make the contact patch and more change of loosing traction.


And that's why, when you are close to the edge of lean angle/traction. And you still accelerate, you will run wider than the line you are taking. That's what I said originally, that when you accelerate while in a turn, you will run wider. Hence we can't always follow the saying "when in doubt, gas it", on streets.

Let me summarize what I have said till so far:
- Yes, you can use brakes while in a corner. Trail braking, while entering a corner is one way and using rear brakes gently while in a corner in another.
- Using brake while in a corner should be a secondary option, noramlly one should try to enter a corner at slow enough speed. But streets(streets NOT EQUAL to riding at a small section of twisties that we know like the back of our hand) are often full of surprises and hence sometimes you need to touch rear brake to take care of such surprises.
- When you are leaned into a corner, often you can't lean more (being on street, for various reasons), then you will run wider than the line you are taking in the corner.


I think we are having a good discussion, I see no bad in everyone sharing their experiences. After all, discussion is one way to learn/share.

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niranjanvaidya

This is seriously some of the best discussion that we have had since the Pune thread took off and I can see it getting better.

Since Nav talked about discussion and sharing experience, let me contribute to it with my experience on this topic.

• Using a correct entry speed is usually the key along with the below factors.
• Correct entry speed can be achieved by a combination of using the correct gear and a comfortable speed.
• Your entry speed and the arc of the turn dictates your entry line.
• A combination of your entry line and speed dictate your angle of lean and the exit point.

I used to have the perception that using the rear brake mid corner can reduce your speed and hence I used to enter a corner faster than I was comfortable with. However, over a period of time, I discovered that using the rear brake not only costs me time but also upsets the bike more than my liking. I was also affected by teddy bear braking at that time.


Later, when I got the 220, I started leaving the rear brake alone. At times, when the front could not really slow me down to the desired entry speed, I would use the rear to assist a faster retardation but once committed to a line, I would leave the rear alone and concentrate on the throttle. This according to me was the best possible solution.


As Tenhut said, different riders, different line of thought, for me, I could use the throttle to control my line and speed mid corner. At times, I did caress the front brake lever to scrub speed..and I was comfortable doing that; not that this is a recommended or technically a correct choice.



I have seen riders using their rear brake all the way upto the apex and come out with a sharper line on the exit. I used to marvel at their ability to control the drift under braking but then again, I have also seen Casey Stoner do that with the throttle..use more gas, power drift your rear to square the line.


In the end, it all boils down to practice and perfecting what works for you. The technical manual can be held as a guideline and the practice can revolve round it.

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nav75

+1 to the list.
As I mentioned in my early replies, nothing like entering the corner at correct/comfortable speed.

It would be nice to hear from you, what made you realized that using rear brake in the corner wasn't working (slowing you down).

+1 to bold
Like as you said above, sometimes you won't mind using some amount of front brakes to scrub speed. I normally is scared of using the front brake, while in a corner, and hence use the rear brake for the same purpose.

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niranjanvaidya

The realization was on my P150 and most of it was at Lavasa. A couple of times, when I tried to use the rear to slow down mid corner, I could sense the rear trying to step out (obvious)..making me pick the bike and make mid corner correction to the line. The result is pretty obvious, I was running out of my line into the opposite lane and the correction to the line, speed and lean made me lose time.

I have seen a classic case of what happens when you "panic" rear brake a lot. On one occasion, I was following a fellow rider downhill when he went a bit tight on the entry to a tightening left corner. His entry speed was high, line was incorrect but he had committed to that line and was already leaning into the corner. As it turns out, a Mahindra pickup driving mid road made him panic and he hit the rear brake hard as he tried to pick up his bike. The rear locked up and sent his tail right out of the line...It was maybe his reaction or luck or his guardian angel on overtime that saved him, he left the rear brake, the bike snapped to head straight and he missed the pickup truck.

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nav75

I think I have seen this happen a few times myself. When the rider ahead had to lift up the bike, trying to correct his high corner speed (for that corner). As a result, couple of them has run off the tarmac (on the run off area) and couple of them had to brake hard, while in opposite lane to avoid going off cliff/hit hill wall.

Now imagine what would have happened in "panic" front braking, instead of rear. In panic, normally one ends up locking the wheel. To me, its better/easy to recover from a rear wheel lock than a front.
Again, using a wrong line in a corner along with higher speed, I guess there is no solution to it than to learn, correct, and practice the right things. I guess that's where reading text as first step, practice on road as second step, discuss with others/take feedback comes in handy.

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