Thanks for a kickstart MG....a question has been churning in my belly for sometime...
Can someone tell me the change interval for Motul 5100? Nothing is mentioned on the box...just a fold-in at the back having a small description and something about JasoMa in many languages...Just hope I got an original one, though.
Ok here it is - suitably modified from the original post as per latest developments -
The myth of Castrol Power 1:
This is with reference to your internet query on Castrol Power 1 4T.
The Viscometrics of Castrol Power 1 4T is 15W/40
If u need any further information,feel free to contact us.
Rajan P Krishnan,
Technical Services Manager,
Castrol India Limited
Technopolis Knowledge Park
Mahakali Caves Road, Andheri(E)
Mumbai-400 093 (India)
Mobile : +91 98201 36549
What is important to note is that the VI rating is mentioned as 15W40 . There is popular misconception among many service center people (mechanics) and also the public in large that Power 1 is for higher capacity bikes - viz P180 , P200 etc .
A P150 is supposed to be run with 20W40 oil . Most of the 150cc bikes carry the same recommendation. In such cases use of a 15W40 oil is more than ideal since the VI rating for Zero deg Celsius is 15 meaning the oil flows better than the recommended rating of 20 . To get clarifications about the VI(viscosity index) ratings pls go through this page -
A P180 is supposed to run on 20W50 oil . Same for P200 and AFAIK it is the same for a P220 also . If you use a 15W40 oil in your P180/200/220 this is what happens -
at Zero deg C temps the VI rating is 15 which is better than the recommended 20 but at 100 deg C the recommended VI rating is 50 . Higher the VI rating thicker is the oil meaning it flows less and sticks more to the walls . Power 1 has a VI rating of 40 at 100deg C . This is lesser than the recommended rating of 50 . Which means it is not thick enough at 100C to stick to the walls as required . So it becomes thin and starts flowing around instead of sticking a bit more to the walls . Over prolonged periods of use , this is a very significant factor in engine wear IMHO.
As temp increases oils tend to thin and the modifiers used in them prevent this from happening . But if you are using a 15W40 instead of a 15W50 then there is nothing that can be done to prevent harm to your engine . The 15W40 oil is inherently more fluid than a 15W50 oil at 100Deg C so your engine is exposed to greater wear . And this just accumulates over a long period of usage . Using wrong grade of engine oil results in a hard to operate clutch , notchy gearbox , and internal engine damage.
Hence the need to stick to the recommended engine oil ratings . This is precisly why Power 1 despite all the popular gyan is not suitable for a P180/200/220. For a Karizma the oil rating used to be 20W40 . In this case power 1 definitely fits the bill . But HHMIL have revised the ratings for the ZMA R and the new recommendation is 10W30 . In this case Power 1 doesn't seem to be a great choice since at 100 deg C Power 1 sticks to the walls more than required . The oil is reqd to be more fluid at this temp but it is not so in this particular case . So the jury is out on use of Power 1 in the new ZMA R . But it is definitely suitable for the old ZMA .Especially if you get a genuine can of power 1 - it is really good in its category.
For a P180 , P200 and likely for P220 the best oil in the market would be something that is at least 20W50 . You could also use 15W50 or in general "X"w50 where (X is less than or equal to 20) . But these oils will HAVE to be JASO MA certified . API ratings are subjective but a rating of API SJ at the very least is preferable.
In my personal experience some of the oils that fit the bill are Mak 4T excel (mineral based oil but very hard to find ) ; Valvoline Premium 4T(semi synth) and Motul 300V FL 15W50 (fully synth) . Castrol has launched Activ 4T Xtra which is 20W50 but my experiences with it are not very good hence I wouldn't suggest it . But that is just my opinion....
Valvoline Premium 4T (VP4T as I call it ... ) is available easily enough in JC rd . Motul is also available nearby at Minerva Circle while Mak will be available at most BPCL petrol pumps .
Spec sheet of VP4T-
Since fully synthetic oils cost a lot and many ppl are not willing to use it even if it offers more durability , I recommend you to try VP4T which is a semi synthetic and offers extended drain intervals compared to a mineral based oil and it costs about the same as a can of Power 1.
Mind you , that this is my personal recommendation for ppl who are looking for 20W50 grade JASO MA certified oil . VP4T is a JASO MA certified oil that exceeds API SL ratings ( API ratings are explained in previous posts) .
I have been using this for quite some time on my P180 , and also on my P200 . I can definitely vouch for its performance under varying conditions . Very impressive and ideal for the average biker who is not keen on blowing a lot of money on fully synthetic offerings.
pic copyright - www.valvolinecummins.com
For those who are interested in fully synth oils - there is the Motul 300V FL 15W50 . here-http://sandeepkram.blogspot.com/2007/06/synthetic-oils-in-motorbikes.html
Finally , for those who want a 20W40 , there is the mineral based Castrol Activ 4T (20W40) and semi synthetic Castrol Power 1 (15W40).
Let me add that if you are looking for a xW40 semi synth oil - nothing beats a genuine can of Power 1. The bane for this product has been that its been counterfeited in large numbers and such duplicate items in the market have affected its repute.
In case you are interested to know more about these oils , pls leave a comment and I will inform you about their availability , price etc ..
Last edited by Sandeep_K_Ram; 09-23-2008 at 07:43 PM.
Do not use Car Engine oils in wet clutch multiplate motorbikes
Do not use Car engine oils in Motorbikes ...
Another one of my wiki pages ..
Car oils in Bikes ?
A lot of people have used engine oils meant for cars in their bikes and claim that there is absolutely nothing wrong in doing so since they cannot find any damage .
The damage is certainly not perceptible to you , but such engine oils undoubtedly damage the internals . A brief intro for those who don't want to read the lengthy post-
Most car oils are rated as API SF, SG, SL and the latest being SM (not yet avail in India)
These ratings are given once in three years and each new rating is an improvement over the previous one . The ratings are in the same order as the english aphabets . The newer is better . so SM is better than SL and SL is better than SG etc.
Car engine oils have friction modifiers in them . Motorbike engine oils - specifically four stroke engines with a wet clutch multiplate setup do not require oils with friction modifiers . Modifiers can increase or decrease the friction , but most of the modifiers used are to reduce friction.
In my earlier post wrt to synth oils I have already explained why synthetic oils sometimes cause the clutch to slip .
Recap - Synthetic Oils
Recap - synth oils meant for cars when used in bike will cause clutch to slip because car synth oils have friction reducers which are not requried in wet clutch motorbikes. The oil in wet clutch motorbikes need the oil only as a coolant not a lubricant . The lubing is required for the engine and not the clutch in this case. Hence use only specially formulated motorbike syth oils and not mobil 1 etc in bikes. Synth oils are available for motor bikes specifically - ex motul 300V.
Bike spec oils
Coming back - The SL and SM ratings have friction reduction modifiers which are required in cars but for the same reason as explained above, they are not suitable for wet clutch multiplates . Apart from the clutch it is reported to cause damage to engine as well . The links for all of this is given below.
The only API ratings that are applicable to most indian motobike engines are oils that are of API SF or SG ratings . Check any bike manual and most of them are of this specification .
The only body which is rates oils for use in 4stroke wet clutch bikes is JASO - Japanese Automotives Standards Organisation (Publication - JASO) . There are two ratings from JASO - MA and MB . MA for hi friction engines and MB for low friction engines . MB is never recommened for any indian bike . As explained previously its for low friction application - not for our kind of bikes.
Always use JASO MA grade oil . It doesnt matter what the API rating is , if its JASO MA - you are guaranteed that the clutch won't slip and as long as the oil is not API SL and above you are guaranteed that the oil is not harming the engine. All the relevant links are given below.
Resarch from the Net
From Oils Well That Ends Well, Part 1 - Sport Rider Magazine
Rather than continue to rely on specifications dedicated to automobiles, the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (or JASO) developed its own set of tests specifically for motorcycles. JASO now publishes these standards, and any oil company can label its products under this designation after passing the proper tests. JASO offers two levels of certification, MA (high friction applications) and MB (low friction applications). JASO requires that the entire product label be approved before it can carry its label. If a label does not have a box with a registration number above the MA or MB lettering, it could be nonapproved oil whose manufacturer claims its products meet JASO standards when it may not have actually passed the tests.
These standards also include a test specifically designed to measure the oil's effect on clutch lock-up, as well as heat stability and several other factors related to motorcycle engines. Our advice here is pretty simple: Read your manual, and if it calls for an API SG oil, use that. Don't substitute a higher API designation oil like SL, because it will contain less of some additives like phosphorus, and it may contain other additives that will yield higher fuel economy in a car but could cause slippage in your clutch. (More on that later.)
Why should you not use car engine oil in bikes
None of the arguments I've provided so far have relied on the familiar old ideas about motorcycle engines being harder on oil than car engines that are so contentious in the debate. What I've presented so far is sufficient to show why you should not use modern typical car oil in typical motorcycles. But let's at least mention some of the old reasons.
- Zinc from ZDDP. Zinc is an anti-wear additive typically found in motorcycle-specific oils at higher levels than in car oils. The chemical that provides it is ZDDP, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate.
- Phosphorus from ZDDP. This ingredient is helpful for preventing gear wear. It is used in motorcycle engine oils to help protect the transmission. But phosphorus is bad for catalytic converters, so car oils, which are not used to lubricate transmission gears, have very little phosphorus.
- Viscosity. The common car oils are 10W30 or lighter, like 5W30 and 0W30. These are too thin for motorcycles. Most motorcycles call for 10W40 or heavier in order to support bearings, resist against consumption due to volatility, and so on.
The debate over factors such as these often revolves around questions of the degree to which your engine actually experiences the extreme conditions that specialized formulations are intended to protect against, the degree to which simple use of ordinary oil with a much higher frequency of replacement would offer similar protection, and the relatively high cost of motorcycle-specific oils.
Anectodal stories abound, but as single data points, they're not worth much. When the motorcycle manufacturers themselves, who have no vested interest in whose oil you buy, warn against the use of car oil for specific reasons, and when the oil industry itself acknowledges this difference in requirements by responding with a new set of standards for motorcycle-specific oils, I think it is pretty safe to put your trust in the recommendation that you should not use the modern SL "Energy Conserving" oils in your motorcycle......"
More good reasons why you don't want to use car oil in bikes
ThumperFaq: New Page
Q: IS AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL BAD FOR A MOTORCYCLE?
A: Not bad, but probably not the best. Why not? It is designed in reverse order to a motorcycle oil. The priority hierarchy of automotive motor oil is: (1) Maximize fuel economy. (2) Reduce emissions. (3) Offer protection for the moving parts. Today's automotive motor oils do not have the same degree of extreme pressure and anti-wear agents that they did just a decade ago."
Q: WILL AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL HURT MY BIKE?
A: It could. If you're using an automotive motor oil in your racing four-stroke, you're not buying the best protection. An API SL oil is missing vital anti-wear components: the most common being zinc, phosphorus and sulfur. These agents are harmful to the catalyst that is used to diminish the level of pollutants in automobile exhaust.
Q: WILL AUTOMOTIVE OIL HURT MY CLUTCH?
A: Yes. The friction modifiers in motor oil improve fuel economy by making it easier for the gears, bearings, pistons and rings to slip, slide and turn inside the engine. Unfortunately, these friction-minimizing agents also make it easier for the clutch in a motorcycle to slip. If you are using automotive motor oil in your bike, apart from CRFs, you are losing hook-up and acceleration, as well as reducing the life of the clutch.
Q: WHY SHOULD I MEMORIZE THE ACRONYM "JASO"?
A: As soon as it became apparent that the American government was mandating economy over protection, the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) developed a standard specifically for performance fourstroke motorcycles. JASO designates two different four-stroke oil classifications: MA and MB. The MB oil is low friction and the MA is sans the friction enhancers.
Q: WHY ARE MOTORCYCLE SPECIFIC OILS BETTER?
A: Motorcycle specific oils are pumped up with five times the anti-wear, anti-scuff and extreme pressure additives of regular motor oil. As an added plus, motorcycle oil does not include molybdenum disulfide and other friction modifiers that wreak havoc on clutch performance.
Maxima, a popular motorcycle oil supplier, starts with an API SG Service Category base oil, the last formulation that wasn't regulated as to the amount of zinc-dialkyldithiophosphate (zinc, phosphorus and sulfur) it could contain. Maxima then boosts protection through a proprietary mix of performance additives. The end result is a motorcycle oil that doesn't break down under extreme heat and is tough enough to cushion meshing gears.
Q: WHICH FOUR-STROKE RACING OIL SHOULD I USE?
A: If the bottle of oil doesn't list that it is an API SG Service Category or JASO MA spec, it's not good enough for your motocross bike. Although a bottle of oil might say "motorcycle specific" or "safe in wet clutches," the best endorsement is the API SG or JASO MA designation. It's better to be safe than sorry.
Finally the best answer your can get
In many 4-stroke motorbikes, the motor oi lubrcates the transmission and clutch as well as the engne. If a car grade motor oil is used clutch slipping may occur at high power loads. But if you see the JASO MA specification on the oil container, you can be sure that the clutch will always bite.
Motorcycle engines place different demands on motor oils than do passenger vehicles. In the case of passenger vehicles, the focus is on fuel economy and extended oil hange intervals, factors that by the nature of things are not important with motorcycles. On bikess, engines offering increasingly higher torques and RPMs are being used to genertae more and more power. And this is where oil additives are causing the wet clutches used on bikes to slip.
JASO MA Offers an answer
In response to the requests from leading motorcycle manufacturers, the japanese Automobile Standards Organisation (JASO) has introduced JASO MA and MB, the first specifications to apply solely to motor oils for 4-stroke motorcycle with wet clutches. These standards set additional lubricant requirements beyond the spark-ignition motor oil grades defined by API or ACEA.
The JASO T 903 bench test determines coefficients of friction under various operating conditions compared with the reference oil. The results allow oils to be divided into two catagories:
- MA = Non Slipping Oil
- MB = Slipping Oil
Coefficient of friction measurements that conform to MA requirements guaruntee that clutch slipping will not occur under any load condition on even the most high performance racing bikes. These values are therefore specified by leading motorcycle manufacturers...."
The additive levels recommended for four-cycle motorcycles are generally characteristic of oils with API SF or SG performance. API SH, SJ and SL oils have an additive level that could be detrimental to the running of the motorcycle gear system, which is also lubricated by the engine oil.
Can I use car engine oil in my motorbike then ?
Car Bibles : The Engine Oil Bible
Q. Can I use car engine oil in my motorbike then?
A. No you can't.
Well, actually you can in some cases. The real answer to this question lies in the type of motorbike you own. If you own a Bike with a wet clutch (ie. where the clutch sits partially submerged in the sump oil) and you dump car oil into it, all sorts of nasty things happen. Oils formulated for car engines have friction-modifiers in them. When the engine oil gets into the clutch, the friction-modifiers get to work and you'll end up with a clutch that won't bite. Bike oils generally don't have friction-modifiers, so they don't have this problem. If you're not sure, check for a JASO MA spec on the bottle. If you see that on the label, then it means the oil has been tested and confirmed to work with a wet clutch. ......"
According to the latest JASO documentation available here - Latest JASO Documentation (http://http://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf)
The API ratings are primarily meant for "gasoline engines " and really more applicable to cars etc than bikes. This has been known for a long time . But the manufacturers always mention both API and JASO ratings since these take on different amount of significance in different markets . Finally I was able to find definitive proof that API ratings need not be taken into consideration at all . At the most it can be regarded as the least important factor in deciding engine oils for your motorbike .
The above PDF file explains the same in a very lucid manner . Pls download it and go through Page 8 , section 3.4
So the only ratings we have to consider to be extremely important are JASO MA and the Viscosity index.
API rating is usually for car oils . The ratings are given once in about 3 years or so . Each new rating refers to improvement over the previous version . Ex - SL is better than SG and SM better than SL and SG etc but what you have to note is that these are ratings for engine oils to be used in passenger cars . (the API website refers to passenger car engines as automotive engines - just look at the spec chart . Ratings for motorbike engine oils is not given by API but still , that std is followed even for motorbike engines in the USA . JASO is the body which gives specific oil ratings for motor bike engine oils.) No matter what the API rating is , Unless a given grade of oil is rated as JASO MA , or unless the manufacturer claims that it is JASO MA certified , do no use it in your Bike since JASO MA is the only standard rating in the world to be referred to when you use engine oils in your 4stroke motobike engines which have a wet clutch multiplate setup.
Do not use JASO MB - it is for low friction engines and it is not for use in our bikes . Check the manual of your motobike - the recommended engine oil is always JASO MA and not MB.
Thus , passenger car oils are not suitable for motorbikes in most cases . There are very rare cases where you a API rated oil which might be rated as SL but still meets JASO MA ratings.
Last edited by Sandeep_K_Ram; 09-23-2008 at 07:47 PM.
Thanks a lot Sandeep...I will take my time to get through this article!!
You can use Synthetic oils in motorbikes provided ...
Pic copyright - www.motul.fr
The following is a wiki entry in BikeNomads wiki project . It was compiled by me quite some time ago and I am now reproducing it here , ... the only difference is that the bike I had at that time - a P180 Classic is not with me any more as I sold it and bought a P200
Quite some time ago , I contacted Motul Indias depot in B'lore and found out that they are actually selling a fully synthetic oil and a mineral based oil too . Curious to know why they were selling synthetic oil here , I decided to do some digging. The whole synthetic oil bad for indian bikes saga is going to end now and TODAY ...because after extensive research on the web I finally found out that this is just a myth and the reality is entirely different . Read on ...
You have a dry clutch and a wet clutch .
A dry clutch is one which doesn't make use of a coolant to keep it cool . It is cooled by nothing other than air flowing around it . None of the bikes in India use a dry clutch - at least AFAIK . The dry clutch bikes are quite noisy while changing gears, a case in the point being the dukes - an example of hi perf bikes using dry clutches.
A wet clutch is immersed in a coolant - in most of the cases this is the engine oil itself ..as is the case in our Indian bikes. The idea of the oil used in wet clutch multiplate system is to cool and not lubricate the clutch ...this is very important. Also to be noted is that wet clutches use multiple clutch plates and hence the name wet clutch multiplate setup ...
This is where the trouble starts . Some ppl have tried out synthetic oil in their motorbikes . A synthetic oil has a more uniform molecular structure than a mineral based oil and hence offers more uniform lubrication. ..i.e less friction .
The argument being made is that since the synthetic lube offers even less friction to movement , it causes the clutch plates to "slip" . Continued usage of such oils wil cause damage . The last sentence is a FACT . If you use a oil which causes your clutch to slip , you will end up with damage.
But nowadays were are getting synthetic oils designed especially for motorbikes and Motul is one of the companies that has designed a 100% synthetic engine oil keeping in mind the requirements of bikes such as those we use in India.
This is specifically designed for higher performance bikes . It is branded as Motul 300 V Factory Line and is their best selling oil for motorbikes in India .
The mineral based oil is called Motul 3000 4T and they are available in 20W40 and 20W50 grade . They cost around 130 Rupees for a litre. The synth oil costs Rs 640 per litre . The premium it commands is because its a fully synth oil with double esters for better detergent action.
In case of the synth oil , the viscosity is such that it ensures that the oil performs its primary job of keeping the clutch cool and not lubricating the clutch.This is the criteria for wet clutch synth oils - that they should cool the clutch but not lubricate them - thus prevent clutch slippage. And at the same time they act as a lube also - but for the engine .
This is a link obtained from the India site about Motul oils available in the region
Please note that in that list only Motul 300V factory line (100% synth 15W50) and Motul 3000 4T (20W40/50) are currently available off the shelf.
To further clear and settle this matter - here is the link for comprehensive info on synth oils and wet clutch bikes -
The info on that page is given by AMSOIL - a global oil co .
This is just an example of a company designing synth oils specifically for motorbikes. Unless a synth oil says it is meant for motorbikes , pls do no use it . Most of the time , ppl who have used synth oils in their bikes would have used Mobil 1 or some such top brand and reported clutch damage.
Well its not the oils fault or the manufacturers fault - those synth oils were meant for cars and not for bikes ! So you can't say that synth oil is not meant for wet clutch bikes . Synth oils have been designed for our wet clutch bikes and you can definitely use synth oils for your Bike - PROVIDED - it says " for motorbikes" on the back of the can .
I hope this busts the myth about synthetics in bikes. I can vouch for this without any hesitation since I have used Motul 300V in my P180CL . So far there have been absolutely no problems with the clutch . The engine is butter smooth - revs freely to 10.5K and there is no unnecessary engine/gearbox heating etc etc - all those probs which other ppl have reported are non existent .
So let us all be more aware of this matter and stop hesitating from giving our bikes a little better .
If anybody from B'lore is interested in going for Motul pls follow the foll directions to get to the depot -
At Minerva circle junction - to the left of the signal there is Nandhini Deluxe hotel . To its left is the goodyear showroom . On the first floor of the same building is Cherry agencies - who stock Motul oils. Mind you - you cannot turn left at Minerva circle so you have to come in the other direction - which is from VV puram circle to minerva to be able to stop in front of the goodyear showrrom . .. or park somewhere near minerva and walk - its 2 min away .
The pic in the post is that of the Motul 300V Factory Line Double Ester oil available in India.
Last one for now
Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T - Fully synthetic 10W40
Castrol seem to have finally woken up from their slumber. Recently, a new engine oil has been made available called the "Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T".
Its a 10W40, JASO MA2, API SL -- but most importantly -its a fully synthetic oil - something that was sorely lacking from their product portfolio till date.
Power 1 - 15W40 was a good semisynth but not suitable for bikes like a Pulsar 200/220 where the manufacturer recommended that you use a 20W50 oil. Now with this latest product Castrol claim that a bike using this oil will perform better than if using any 20W50 mineral oil. See the pics for more details. So people using 20W50 can try this out if they are willing to experiment - especially P200/220 owners - do it at your own risk - please read owners manual before experimenting with this oil - there are warranty issues to be made note of..
It costs about 750 per Litre and its in direct competition the Motul 300V I suppose. Good going by Castrol. But as always the biggest problem is with counterfeit products. Power 1 was replicated in such large numbers and easily available everywhere..that I stopped purchasing it from anybody other than the official supplier. And again, it seems that this oil has been available in JC Road for about 2 months. I seriously doubt if these cans were the the genuine product. I hope Castrol does something to curb these practices.
I have a can with me already and will be using this in my Karizma and do a long term review. Right now I am checking out another brand of oil right now which I will be using on a long trip this weekend It will give me a good idea about the oils in the xW30/xW40 category .
1. It must be available at Castrol Bike Zones however I am not entirely certain about that.
2. For local availability please shoot a mail to Castrol India or visit HERE.
Usually they respond very quickly.
3. Bangalore chaps - take a look at the Bike Zone svc centers , if not available -
you can contact Bike World 7th blk Jayanagar - 08026651910 they source the oil directly from the Castrol supplier in b'lore
4. Last choice would be JC Road - at your own risk because its well known that they have a lot of fake products there .
I have been using this oil for the last 600km. The engine is still very free revving, very smooth , low vibes and slick shifts. It feels like the oil is still very new. Very little discolouration can be seen from what little oil that can be sampled from the dipstick hole.
And please dont buy this oil in any other packing. Its available in the same bottle packing as Power 1 but the bottle is gold in colour - it costs 700 per litre - its not the genuine product. Counterfeited most likely - easily available in this form in JC road. Keep away from it.
Last edited by Sandeep_K_Ram; 09-23-2008 at 07:56 PM.
Thanks Sandeep for the additions.I was about to ask you the same.
i also happened to get this steel can of Power1 Racing oil from Castrol all thanks to Sandeep K Ram who bought it for me.
i havnt used it yet...waiting to drain my Power1 oil after it turns bad.
I have a doubt...why isnt this particular expensive product still hasnt made into their website???
long live xbhp