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Thread: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

  1. #101
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    @ psr : how do you knw so much about locomotives ??

    really wanna know..

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    Quote Originally Posted by princesirohi View Post
    @ psr : how do you knw so much about locomotives ??
    really wanna know..
    If you are really hungry you desperately search for food..till you get it...
    I did the same..
    Last edited by psr; 07-02-2012 at 06:50 PM.
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    Default Electric locomotives.

    An electric locomotive is a locomotive powered by electricity from overhead lines, a third rail or an on-board energy storage device (such as a chemical battery or fuel cell).
    One advantage of electrification is the lack of pollution from the locomotives themselves. Electrification also results in higher performance, lower maintenance costs and lower energy costs for electric locomotives.Electric locomotives are also quiet compared to steam or diesel locomotives since there is no engine and exhaust noise and less mechanical noise. The lack of reciprocating parts means electric locomotives are easier on the track, reducing track maintenance.
    Power plant capacity is far greater than what any individual locomotive uses, so electric locomotives can have a higher power output than steam or diesel locomotives and they can produce even higher short-term surge power for fast acceleration. Electric locomotives are ideal for commuter rail service with frequent stops and very versatile since their Tractive effort is higher. They are used for high-speed trains also.
    Electric locomotives benefit from the high efficiency of electric motors, often above 90% (not including the inefficiency of generating the electricity). Additional efficiency can be gained from regenerative braking, which allows kinetic energy to be recovered during braking to put some power back on the line. Newer electric locomotives use AC motor-inverter drive systems that provide for regenerative braking.

    The chief disadvantage of electrification is the cost for infrastructure (overhead power lines or electrified third rail, substations, and control systems).
    The first known electric locomotive was built in 1837 by chemist Robert Davidson of Aberdeen. It was powered by galvanic cells ('batteries'). Davidson later built a larger locomotive named Galvani which was exhibited at the Royal Scottish Society of Arts Exhibition in 1841. The seven-ton vehicle had two direct-drive reluctance motors, with fixed electromagnets acting on iron bars attached to a wooden cylinder mounted on each axle, and simple commutators. It hauled a load of six tons at four miles per hour for a distance of one and a half miles. It was destroyed by railway workers, who saw it as a threat to their security of employment.. The first electric passenger train was presented by Werner von Siemens at Berlin in 1879. The locomotive was driven by a 2.2 kW, series-wound motor, and the train, consisting of the locomotive and three cars, reached a maximum speed of 13 km/h. During four months, the train carried 90,000 passengers on a 300-metre-long circular track. The electricity (150 V DC) was supplied through a third, insulated rail situated between the tracks. A contact roller was used to collect the electricity from the third rail.

    Here is the pic of the train....


    The world's first electric tram line opened in Lichterfelde near Berlin, Germany, in 1881. It was built by Werner von Siemens (see Gross-Lichterfelde Tramway and Berlin Straenbahn). In Britain, Volk's electric railway was opened in 1883 in Brighton (see Volk's Electric Railway). Also in 1883, Mdling and Hinterbrhl Tram was opened near Vienna in Austria. It was the first tram and railway in the world in regular service that was run with electricity served by an overhead line. Five years later, in the US electric trolleys were pioneered in 1888 on the Richmond Union Passenger Railway, using equipment designed by Frank J. Sprague.

    Much of the early development of electric locomotion was driven by the increasing use of tunnels, particularly in urban areas. Smoke from steam locomotives was noxious and people were increasingly inclined to prohibit their use within their limits. Thus the first successful working, the City and South London Railway underground line in the UK, was prompted by a clause in its enabling act prohibiting use of steam power.[This line opened in 1890, using electric locomotives built by Mather and Platt. Electricity quickly became the power supply of choice for subways, abetted by the Sprague's invention of multiple-unit train control in 1897. Surface and elevated rapid transit systems generally used steam until forced to convert by ordinance.
    Last edited by psr; 08-14-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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    The first use of electrification on a mainline was on a four-mile stretch of the Baltimore Belt Line of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O) in 1895. This track connected the main portion of the B&O to the newly built line to New York and it required a series of tunnels around the edges of Baltimore's downtown. Parallel tracks on the Pennsylvania Railroad had shown that coal smoke from steam locomotives would be a major operating issue, as well as a public nuisance. in 1902 led the New York State legislature to outlaw the use of smoke-generating locomotives
    after 1 July 1908. In response, electric locomotives began operation in 1904 on the New York Central Railroad. In the 1930s, the Pennsylvania Railroad, which also had introduced electric locomotives because of the NYC regulation, electrified its entire territory east of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.


    . The first implementation of industrial frequency single-phase AC supply for locomotives came from Oerlikon in 1901, using the designs of Hans Behn-Eschenburg and Emil Huber-Stockar; installation on the Seebach-Wettingen line of the Swiss Federal Railways was completed in 1904. The 15 kV, 50 Hz 345 kW (460 hp), 48 tonne locomotives used transformers and rotary converters to power DC traction motors. In 1896-1898, Klmn Kand designed a short three phase AC traction tramway in Evian-les-Bains (France)





    Italian railways were the first in the world to introduce electric traction for the entire length of a mainline rather than just a short stretch. The 106 km Valtellina line was opened on 4 September 1902, designed by Klmn Kand and a team from the Ganz works.
    A later development of Klmn Kand working with both the Ganz works and Societa Italiana Westinghouse, introduced an electro-mechanical converter, allowing the use of three-phase motors powered from single-phase alternating current, thus eliminating the need for two overhead conductor wires. In 1923, the first phase-converter locomotive in Hungary was constructed on the basis of Kand’s designs and serial production began soon after. The first installation, at 16 kV 50 Hz, was in 1932 on the 56 km section of the Hungarian State Railways between Budapest and Komrom. This proved successful

    In Europe, electrification projects initially focused on mountainous regions for several reasons: coal supplies were difficult, hydroelectric power was readily available, and electric locomotives gave more traction on steeper lines. This was particularly applicable in Switzerland, where today close to 100% of lines are electrified.

    The 1960s saw the electrification of many European main lines (Eastern Europe included). European electric locomotive's technology had improved steadily from the 1920s onwards. By comparison, the Milwaukee Road class EP-2 (1918) weighed 240 t, with a power of 3,330 kW and a maximum speed of 112 km/h; in 1935, German E 18 had a power of 2,800 kW, but weighed only 108 tons and had a maximum speed of 150 km/h. On 29 March 1955, French locomotive CC 7107 reached a speed of 331 km/h. In 1960 the SJ Class Dm 3 locomotives introduced on the Swedish Railways produced a record 7,200 kW. Locomotives capable of commercial passenger service at 200 km/h appeared in Germany and France in the same period. Further improvements resulted from the introduction of electronic control systems, which permitted the use of increasingly lighter and more powerful motors that could be fitted entirely inside the bogies (standardising from the 1990s onwards on asynchronous three-phase motors, fed through GTO-inverters).

    In the 1980s, development of very high-speed service brought a revival of electrification. The Japanese Shinkansen and the French TGV were the first systems for which devoted high-speed lines were built from scratch. Similar programs were undertaken in Italy, Germany and Spain; in the United States the only new mainline service was an extension of electrification over the Northeast Corridor from New Haven, Connecticut to Boston, Massachusetts, though new light rail systems, using electrically powered cars, continued to be built.

    On 2 September 2006, a standard production Siemens Electric locomotive of the Eurosprinter type ES64-U4 achieved a speed of 357 km/h, the record for a locomotive-hauled train, on the new line between Ingolstadt and Nuremberg.
    The TGV connecting France with England had achieved a top speed of 574 Kmph on a speed trial run.
    Last edited by psr; 08-14-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Over head Power..

    Direct and alternating current:

    The most fundamental difference lies in the choice of direct (DC) or alternating current (AC). The earliest systems used direct current as, initially, alternating current was not well understood and insulation material for high voltage lines was not available. Direct current locomotives typically run at relatively low voltage (600 to 3,000 volts); the equipment is therefore relatively massive because the currents involved are large in order to transmit sufficient power. Power must be supplied at frequent intervals as the high currents result in large transmission system losses.

    As alternating current motors were developed, they became the predominant type, particularly on longer routes. High voltages (tens of thousands of volts) are used because this allows the use of low currents; transmission losses are proportional to the square of the current (e.g. twice the current means four times the loss). Thus, high power can be conducted over long distances on lighter and cheaper wires. Transformers in the locomotives transform this power to a low voltage and high current for the motors. A similar high voltage, low current system could not be employed with direct current locomotives because there is no easy way to do the voltage/current transformation for DC so efficiently as achieved by AC transformers.

    Rectifier locomotives, which used AC power transmission and DC motors, were common, though DC commutators had problems both in starting and at low velocities. Today's advanced electric locomotives use brushless three-phase AC induction motors. These polyphase machines are powered from GTO-, IGCT- or IGBT-based inverters. The cost of electronic devices in a modern locomotive can be up to 50% of the total cost of the vehicle.

    Most systems have a characteristic voltage and, in the case of AC power, a system frequency. Many locomotives over the years were equipped to handle multiple voltages and frequencies as systems came to overlap or were upgraded.

    Electrical circuits require two connections (or for three phase AC, three connections). From the very beginning, the trackwork itself was used for one side of the circuit. Unlike model railroads, however, the trackwork normally supplies only one side, the other side(s) of the circuit being provided separately.

    However, railways generally tend to prefer overhead lines, often called "catenaries" after the support system used to hold the wire parallel to the ground. The most popular Contact collecting system on top of Locomotive,is the Pantograph: a hinged frame that holds the collecting shoes against the wire in a fixed geometry.

    Modern electric locomotives, like their Diesel-electric counterparts, almost universally use axle-hung traction motors, with one motor for each powered axle. In this arrangement, one side of the motor housing is supported by plain bearings riding on a ground and polished journal that is integral to the axle. The other side of the housing has a tongue-shaped protuberance that engages a matching slot in the truck (bogie) bolster, its purpose being to act as a torque reaction device, as well as a support. Power transfer from motor to axle is effected by spur gearing, in which a pinion on the motor shaft engages a bull gear on the axle. Both gears are enclosed in a liquid-tight housing containing lubricating oil. The type of service in which the locomotive is used dictates the gear ratio employed. Numerically high ratios are commonly found on freight units, whereas numerically low ratios are typical of passenger engines.

    India, where routes are electrified fully, operate under the 25 kV AC overhead wire. As of 2006, Indian railways haul 80% of freight and 85% of passenger traffic with electric locomotives.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    India, where routes are electrified fully, operate under the 25 kV AC overhead wire. As of 2006, Indian railways haul 80% of freight and 85% of passenger traffic with electric locomotives.
    Sir do you mean that only 20% of routes in India is operated by Fossil fuels currently ? .
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpak89 View Post
    Sir do you mean that only 20% of routes in India is operated by Fossil fuels currently ? .
    As of 2006 Electrification of most tracks were completed and hence as the more efficient mode of Locomotives were the Electric ones, Trains were run on Electric power...Sadly after 2009 the electric generation became less compared to demand and power cuts became more and long in time.Hence Diesels were pressed into service.Trains run directly by the board(Rajdhani,Shatabthi etc.,) are mostly run on Electric/Diesel Loco power depending on terrain so that their timing and running will continue, even when the train has to pass through areas where power cut will be in Vogue.Added to that if there is derailment, the Loco will invariably snap the overhead line , and it is a time consuming precision work to restore it..Under such times there is no alternative but to run with Diesel Loco...Such running of trains by Diesel Locos where Overhead lines are energized is called Diesel under wire.
    Taking all this into consideration IR has slowed down it's Track electrification programme from 5,200 Kms for 10 years to 2,600 Kms for 10 years ,and preference now is to run Electric Loco mainly in Dense Traffic area only.
    Whenever Power situation improves The Electric Locos will be preferred over the Diesel.
    Last edited by psr; 07-03-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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    Thanks for the detailed explanation
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  9. #109
    psr
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    There are two types of arguments for and against the Electric Locomotive compared to the Diesel Loco..
    Most of the time the efficiency of the Electric Locomotive is said to be above 90% while the diesels are just 40~60% depending on their maintenance and age.
    A new Emerging Outlook actually proves the Electric Locos to be less than Diesel in efficiency..the point of contention is that the Electric Loco draws power from overhead line and in converting it to Locomotion losses are only 10%....but the motive power of Electrical energy is mostly by Coal which gives very less energy conversion efficiency(remember Steam Locos)..Similarly a Hydel or Atomic Electrical energy production is less efficient in that heat is used to boil water into Steam ,which in turn runs a turbine to produce electricity....
    So for truly calculating the electric Loco's efficiency, it's motive power generation should also be taken into account,...just like in Diesel Locos,which are stand alone generators of it's own Energy Needs...
    Here is a Energy Efficiency Evaluation done by a Govt., owned Central Electricity Authority(CEA)and it's Assessment report...


    Mode of Traction... Energy consumed.......... Energy consumed in KCAL......Relative Energy Index
    ............................per 1000 GTKM

    Pass – Diesel................. 4.82................................. 42252 ........................ 1.0
    Pass – Electric .............. 20.6................................. 66892......................... 1.58
    Goods – Diesel .............. 2.96 ................................ 25948......................... 1.0
    Goods – Electric............. 8.28 ................................ 26887......................... 1.04


    So 1 Kg of High Speed Diesel used in Diesel Engine Traction =10,500 Kilo Calories.
    1 KWH of electricity requires =2952 Kilo Callories...
    This is the All India average Heat Rate in KCAL/KWH..

    AUTHORITY For the Calculation..CEA figures.

    So the Electric Traction is now proven to be less efficient than Diesel Locomotive if the Electric Power Generation is also taken into consideration.
    This report and it's findings are influencing the IR's decision making ,in further Electrification of Tracks through India.
    With already proven and improved Diesel Locos on Track,and it's manufacturing cost also becoming less with total indigenisation and volume, the future looks to be Diesel's domain.

    Every 4,000 HP Diesel Loco saves 3 MW power on the power grid,otherwise used by a electric Loco.
    Every 6,000 HP diesel saves 5 MW on the grid
    It is the power used by approximately 1,500 homes...

    After the CAG and CEA evaluation reports,of 1999-2000 and ,2009-2010 IR is now putting the Track electrification on go slow and increasing it's Diesel nos.
    Last edited by psr; 07-03-2012 at 07:20 PM.
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    We will now have a look at the Electric Locomotives of Indian railways.....
    IR started with battery powered Locos at initial stage ,and only about 4 were put in service. The charging,limited power ,etc., made it undependable for regular passenger or goods movement and so it remained as an experimental effort only.
    Later on the Locos were imported from England and Japan and so AC/DC dual Locos came into service in India...
    We will now have a look at the initial DC locos that were in service with IR...
    WCM-1....Manufactured by English Electric / Vulcan Foundry. Auxiliaries from Westinghouse. The first electrics with the now familiar Co-Co wheel arrangement to be used in India. They are characterized by their large size and unusually long hoods. The position of the entrance doors is also unusual, being not at the sides of the cabin, but through an entrance in the middle of the loco body side. Introduced in 1954, several were rebuilt in 1968. They were used on superfast trains such as the Indrayani Exp. and the Deccan Queen (?) until the 1990's. They were rarely used for freight. Air brakes for loco, and regenerative braking. Vacuum train brakes. Three different series-parallel motor combinations are available, as well as weak field operation. MU operation not possible.
    WCM-2.....Manufactured by English Electric / Vulcan Foundry. Auxiliaries by Westinghouse (compressor, etc.) and North-Boyce (exhauster).Slightly smaller than the WCM-1, but with normally positioned entrance doors, these were initially built to run on the 3kV DC sections in the Calcutta area. They were rendered obsolete when still quite new when the Calcutta area was converted to 25kV AC. The RDSO Lucknow modified them to work on 1.5kV DC without loss of power, and they were subsequently moved to the Bombay VT - Poona - Igatpuri area. Built in 1956-57, several were still in service until the 1980s.

    WCM-3......Built by Hitachi. Auxiliaries by Westinghouse and North Boyce.Built in 1957-58, the smallest of the WCM series, also built for the 3kV Calcutta area and later converted to run on 1.5kV DC. Only three were built, nos. 20073-5, all now withdrawn. The WCM-3 units were characterized, apart from their dimunitive size, by separate light enclosures for the parking / marker lights (next to the headlight) and the tail lamps (just above the buffers). Later used mostly for freight. Three series-parallel motor combinations, and weak field. Air brakes for loco, vacuum train brakes.
    WCM-4....... Built by Hitachi. Auxiliaries by Westinghouse and North Boyce. Built in 1960, larger and more powerful versions of the WCM-3, with normal light enclosures. Initially used to haul superfasts and other express trains, but relegated to freight operations due to technical difficulties. These are the only WCM series locos to be used almost exclusively for freight duties (despite the M=mixed classification). Several were fitted with CBC couplers. These are also the last imported engines to come with bonnets (noses) at either end. Only seven of these units were built. Three series-parallel motor combinations, and weak field operation. Air brakes and regenerative braking for loco, vacuum brakes for train.
    WCM-5 .......Built by Chittaranjan Locomotive to RDSO's design . Auxiliaries by Westinghouse and North Boyce. Built in 1962, these are India's first indigenously designed DC electrics. Similar to the WCM-4 locomotives in traction motor arrangement, etc. The first was named 'Lokamanya'. In the WCM series, these are the first to use half-collector pantographs. There is a wide variation in the side window grille profiles, and very few of these units look alike. Several are fitted with CBC couplers. Mostly used for passenger duties. The series is withdrawn , but one has been offered to the National Rail Museum (this is probably the one later reported to be at CLW [2/05]).] Two are still in use (departmental use, etc.), homed at Kalyan, and several decommissioned examples are also at Kalyan.
    WCM-6 ........ Built in 1996 by CLW, to RDSO's specifications. AC auxiliaries, underslung compressor, Siemens static converter, Elgi compressor. Used for light freight duties, especially on the Kalyan-Karjat section. Only two of these were built (#20187, #20188), perhaps because CR preferred the WCAM-3 instead.
    One was seriously damaged in a fire, but was restored by the Kalyan loco shed. For a time [1999] it appears that they were used mostly for shunting duties around Bombay (Byculla yard, etc.). But both have been spotted hauling passenger trains (Diva - Panvel route, Kasara, and around Bombay. Also thought to be used for banking operations up to Lonavala. They have high-adhesion bogies similar to those on the WAG-7. Often coupled with WCG-2 locos. Speed control by three series-parallel motor combinations and weak field operation. Air brakes for loco, vacuum train brakes.



    WCG-1 (EF/1) ‘Crocodile / Krokodil’ 1925....... Rod-driven C+C electric locos supplied to the GIPR in 1928 for use on the Bombay-Poona section for heavy freights. Originally classed EF/1. The first few were made by the Swiss Locomotive Works, Winterthur, and more by the Vulcan Foundry (with electricals from Metropolitan Vickers. They had four 650 hp motors (total power often quoted as 2610hp), driving two three-axle bogies through connecting rods.
    Locally they were known as "khekda" ("crab") They make a curious moaning sound when at rest, and while on the run an unusual swishing sound from the link motion can be heard. Their unusual features included an articulated body (made them ideal for use in heavily curved ghat sections). They also featured regenerative braking (Newport-Shildon, UK). They were known for their superior tractive characteristics on the ghat sections; however, the exposed link mechanisms had to be oiled very frequently in all kinds of weather.

    WCG–2.......... Custom-built 4200 HP freight loco for the 1.5 KVDC section of the CR Mumbai Division. Better adhesion available through the provision of a vernier control on the starting resistance. AC auxiliaries — compressor and alternator from Kirloskar, exhauster by Northey (?), others by S F India. Air brakes for loco, and regenerative brakes; vacuum train brakes. Three series-parallel motor combinations weak field operation. Bogie design as with WDM-2.
    RDSO designs, based on Japanese models but final design and manufacture was by CLW. These locos can be MU'd up to 3 units. Some units of the WCG-2 model have a different gearing ratio for banking duties and are classified WCG-2A.
    WCAM–1 .........Introduced in 1975. This class of loco was generally found only in the Bombay Central - Ahmedabad section. An occasional loco has also appeared on the Bombay V.T. - Igatpuri route.
    One of the single pantographs on the WCAM-1 is used in dc traction; the other one carries ac current. The two pantographs are not identical, though similar in design. Bogie design as for WDM-2, WCG-2, and WAM-4 (Alco asymmetric trimount (Co-Co) bogie with cast frames). These locos perform poorly in DC mode compared to AC mode. Originally built with vacuum brakes only, although a few (Nos. 21805, 21807, 21812, 21828, 21838, 21844, 21845, and 21850) have both vacuum and air brakes. The locos are now restricted to hauling vacuum-braked trains. Loco brakes are air brakes. They also lack dynamic brakes.
    The WCAM-1 does not use a variable ratio auto-transformer in AC mode like the others; it uses a fixed-ratio transformer and rectifier bank to convert the OHE supply to 1500VDC. The design of the transformers and notches makes this a hard machine to operate, with the fusible links tending to blow often. Of the 28 notches, notches 4, 14, 21, and 28 can be used for continuous operation, although notch 4 was intended for low-speed shunting and is very ineffective. Notches 14, 21, and 28 are the terminal notches of the series, series-parallel, and parallel circuit notch sequences. In DC mode, the WCAM-1 uses resistor banks for speed control.
    WCAM–2 ..........WCAM-2 locos have the same traction motors, as the WCAM-1 locos, but different circuitry and gearing. The bogies are somewhat different from those of the WCAM-1 being fabricated trimount Co-Co bogies with secondary suspension. Rated speed 105km/h in both AC and DC modes. (In trials by RDSO this loco is said to have been run at speeds up to 135km/h in AC mode.)
    Almost all of these are dual-braked, but a few are equipped with air brakes only. Double-header frieghts with these locos are a common sight on the Wadala road-Kings Circle-Mahim-Bandra run. They can also be seen on the Vasai-Diva-Kalyan section which is the furthest point they operate out of WR. All the WCAM-1's and -2's are homed at Valsad shed in Gujarat.
    CR's WCAM locos rarely worked in DC zones (exceptions were the CR / Bombay Port Trust's Wadala marshalling yard a portion of which has DC traction, and for hauling the Punjab Mail in the late 1970's) as they delivered very poor performance in DC mode and on CR's heavy grades. Although these locos have the same traction motors as the WAM-4 and WCAM-1, the power output from the WCAM-2 locos is higher than for the WAM-4 and WCAM-1 because in those models the traction motors are underfed (3460kVA transformer in contrast to the 5400kVA transformer for WCAM-2) and do not yield their potential maximum power. Under AC traction, the WCAM-2 locos operate with all six motors in parallel (this has been enforced by modifications to these locos), while in DC mode they also operate in the all-series and series-parallel (2S 3P, i.e., three series-pairs of motors in parallel) configurations.

    WCAM–3 ............These upgraded dual-traction models deliver 4600hp in DC mode and 5000hp in AC mode, and were jointly developed by RDSO and BHEL in 1997. Components are shared with the WCAG-1 locos . They have Co-Co fabricated bogies (High-Adhesion -- shared with WCAG-1, WAG-7, WDG-2, etc.) with secondary suspension. Monocoque underframe. Air brakes are original equipment. They were originally manufactured under a BOLT (build-own-lease-transfer) contract with BHEL, and are probably still owned by BHEL rather than by IR.
    Monocoque underframe. Axle-hung, nose-suspended, force ventilated, taper roller bearings Speed control by tap changers in AC mode and resistance notching in DC mode. Motors can be placed in different series-parallel combinations. Auxiliaries from Elgi, S F India, Best, Gresham & Craven, etc. Static converter from ACEC for auxiliary supply.
    In DC mode, rheostatic braking by self-excitation of traction motors available until 17km/h. Elgi compressor, other auxiliaries from S F India. Rated for 105km/h in both DC and AC mode (sometimes AC mode rated speed is quoted at 110km/h). In practice, WCAM-3 locos have been known to be run at speeds up to 118km/h in regular service (e.g., hauling the Deccan Queen in DC mode). Traction motor configurations as in the WCAM-1/2 and WAM-4 (all 6 in series, 2S 3P, or all parallel -- the latter is the only one used under AC traction, enforced now by modifications to the locos).
    CR uses WCAM-3 locos on Mumbai-Pune and Mumbai-Igatpuri sections which have ghat portions as well as speed restrictions of about 100km/h. Freight rakes double-headed by WCAM-3 (upgraded models) have been sighted on the ghat sections. For excellent WCAM-3 sightings and regular double-header WDM-2 tanker trains, the Kurla-Vidyavihar section is ideal.
    Last edited by psr; 08-13-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-10-2009, 02:35 PM
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