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Thread: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

  1. #421
    Rusted Zapps's Avatar
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    The Ministry of Railways are planning on a major track and Loco conversion to Electris due to the seemingly better efficiency, though past calculation had proved that the Diesel Locos are the best under all conditions since it carries it's own motive power.
    Nice post PSR Sir. So basically, they are removing the engine from the locomotive and putting in the power processing, electric drives and stuff to make it fully electric. That's a nice way of doing things. I heard from someone that even in the diesel locomotives, the final drive is thru DC series motors, is that true?
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  2. #422
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapps View Post
    Nice post PSR Sir. So basically, they are removing the engine from the locomotive and putting in the power processing, electric drives and stuff to make it fully electric. That's a nice way of doing things. I heard from someone that even in the diesel locomotives, the final drive is thru DC series motors, is that true?
    Yes The ageing Electric Loco and the Alco engine based Diesel Locos are merged into one. They take away the Diesel Engine , and transplant the electric Loco's rectifiers, regulators, switches etc , into the Diesel chassis. The traction motors are also upgraded . The full details are yet to be disclosed so exact technical info is incomplete now. The ALCO diesel Loco chassis is one of the best design of all time, and so IR had adopted it in Many of it's production units. In fact when the GE 4,500 HP WDP and WDG engines were tested , they found the tractive effort was best with the ALCO designed chassis and so the WDP and WDG Locos made in India has the ALCO chassis for better Adhesion and tractive effort .
    Regarding the Traction Motors, only ALCO locos on early times had DC motors. They were DC, DC Locos, meaning DC generation and DC traction...Later it became AC, DC ie., AC generation with DC traction....with RDSO keen interest in exploring new avenues to make the Locos better AC, AC ie., AC generation and AC Traction was introduced. in late 90s and early 2000... This meant less loss and maintenance , leading to highly reliable Locos....
    To give an example , earlier Locos have to come for maintenance at 1,000 Kms , when the Traction motor, generators brushes were replaced, injectors graduated, traction motor swing arms bearing replaced etc....now the Locos come in for routine Check up at 3,000 to 4,000 Kms only...

    All ALCO Locos had been converted to AC, AC with in house RDSO developed IGBT controllers with 32 bit TCCs. Many Locos have also been upgraded in HP thanks mainly to RDSO and IR's innovations.

    The Diesel Engine Locos are the best bet for Locos in India , wherein Power Grid Failures during Summer is frequent and Electric Loco operation is not so reliable. Even on Mean Time Between Failure rates , the diesel locos had failed LESS than the Electris Locos .With Bio-Diesel extensively used in India, the cost of operation is also now reduced.

    If Power generation and distribution are taken into consideration, the Electric loco is more expensive and less reliable to operate, than the Diesel loco .
    Last edited by psr; 02-20-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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  3. #423
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    Yes The ageing Electric Loco and the Alco engine based Diesel Locos are merged into one. They take away the Diesel Engine , and transplant the electric Loco's rectifiers, regulators, switches etc , into the Diesel chassis. The traction motors are also upgraded . The full details are yet to be disclosed so exact technical info is incomplete now.
    Thanks Sir, for taking your valuable time to share your knowledge.

  4. #424
    psr
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    In Train 18 ,Due to frequent breakage of window glass caused by miscreants throwing stone at it, IR had decided to test with bullet proof glass as a means of protection .The Diesel Loco Motive Works is slowly now turning into a Electric Locomotive Division with more Diesels being converted to Electric Locos....New 10,000 HP Electric Locos based on design from ABB is being explored mainly for moving freight traffic. In other countries they have found that utilising existing capacity to maximum and MUing where necessary keeps the requirement for Higher power Locos simple and cost effective...
    Last edited by psr; 03-05-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  5. #425
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    In Train 18 ,Due to frequent breakage of window glass caused by miscreants throwing stone at it, IR had decided to test with bullet proof glass as a means of protection .The Diesel Loco Motive Works is slowly now turning into a Electric Locomotive Division with more Diesels being converted to Electric Locos....New 10,000 HP Electric Locos based on design from ABB is being explored mainly for moving freight traffic. In other countries they have found that utilising existing capacity to maximum and MUing where necessary keeps the requirement for Higher power Locos simple and cost effective...
    It's a big shame that when we are getting good facilities, people are shitting over it.
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  6. #426
    psr
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Indian Railways gets its first ‘Make in India’ 9,000 HP electric locomotive! In an engineering feat for the national transporter, the Chittaranjan Locomotive Works (CLW) has rolled out Indian Railways’ first indigenous 9,000 HP electric locomotive.CLW official said that the new 9,000 HP locomotive has been made by upgrading a 6,000 HP electric locomotive, and with this movement of both freight and passenger trains will speed up. The new locomotive has been upgraded at an incremental cost of Rs 1.06 crore.

    According to the CLW official, after successful validation and trials of the new 9,000 HP locomotive, the unit plans to manufacture 7 more such locomotive for freight operations. These new locomotives will be able to attain maximum speeds of 110 kmph when hauling freight. Additionally, CLW is also hoping to manufacture five passenger locomotives of 9,000 HP. These locos, of WAP-7 series, will be able to pull passenger trains at speeds of 140 kmph. The biggest benefits of the new 9,000 HP locomotives would be better acceleration reserve at higher speed and increased through-put. There is also a possibility of improving the speed potential going ahead, says CLW.

    These locomotives are equipped with 4.5MW IGBT based 3-phase drive propulsion equipment. To improve the average speed of freight trains and the traffic throughput, the engine’s horsepower plays a crucial role. To achieve the required locomotive HP to trailing load ratio, a higher horsepower locomotive is required. Hence, CLW has taken up the project to upgrade the power of an existing WAG-9H locomotive from 6,000 HP to 9,000 HP power by modifying the 3-phase drives and traction chain.

    The major features of car-body and dynamics have been retained. CLW has upgraded the traction motor, transformer and traction convertor to deliver the required 9,000 HP. “The bogie design has been re-validated for the upgraded power. The transformer/converter cooling arrangement has been modified,” said the official.

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  7. #427
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

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    Mr.Piyush Goel had announced in the assembly that ICF will manufacture 160 of Train-18 in 2019-2021...However railway Officials are doubting if even a single train will be built and delivered by ICF, since the RDSO had revised the Propulsion System Specification which none of the Suppliers say is economically possible. The Train 18 which had seen successful launch and now running had been steeped in problems due to sub assembly procurement and specs. Vigilance and Anti-Corruption squad had lodged a case that procurement of sub assemblies had not been done as per requirement and bribes have been paid.
    In the wake of this the Indian railways had stopped further procurement from ICF Chennai and an on going probe is still on. Few of the senior people within organisation had been transferred and the morale brought low...The ICF had been the fore runner in Technological innovation and implementation and this accusation comes as a surprise and left people wondering if this is a Witch Hunt done to discredit the achievement and to stall subsequent order...

    "The specifications set by Research Design and Standards Organisation (RDSO) and Research wing in November included other items and specs to which the suppliers had objected to"...said Shubranshu a Mechanical dept., head who is now transferred to the wheel division . He was the chief Mechanical engineer and part of Core Team in the development of Train-18. He had specifically written a letter to the Ministry and Railway Board citing bribing by Vested Interest to promote purchase of the Train as Import at a cost of 25,000 Crores , while ICF had the know how to build it in house, as proven by the Two trains already made and is in Service.
    The fundamental purpose of a vigilance probe in connection with sourcing of items for the Vande Bharat Express or Train 18 is to sabotage India's own semi-high speed train which itself needs to be probed, a senior Indian Railways official has said.
    The Chief Administrative Officer at the Rail Wheel Plant in Bihar, Mr Shubhrangshu, wrote to Railway Board Chairman VK Yadav and says of the vigilance probe that "the purpose seems to be to sabotage the indigenous train forever and to kill initiative. The intent behind such 'fixing of officers' and creating terror is well understood."
    As an engineer on Vande Bharat Express and a concerned Indian citizen, Mr Shubhranshu demanded a vigilance inquiry into the sabotage of Vande Bharat Express, the air conditioned electric multiple units and mainline electric multiple unit.
    He noted that nothing incriminating had come out in the vigilance probe that started six months back on the procedural violations in component procurement for rolling out Train 18 in a record 18 months.
    "What started as accusations of violating procedures against the innovative, bold and nationalistic team of ICF (Integral Coach Factory, Chennai) later evolved into a full bloom vigilance inquiry," Mr Shubhranshu said.
    A retired ICF official on conditions of anonymity told IANS that the initial complaints about Train 18 were thought to be by some jealous officials.
    "But now it seems it is part of an elaborate plan to sabotage India's attempts to roll out semi high speed trains and breaking into the elite club of such train makers," he said.
    According to the officials, the work on rolling out Train 18 has come to a standstill, while the government is looking to import of trainsets.

    At least Three Multinational Companies have complained about the revised Tender in which apart from the Propulsion Sytem, other systems like Automatic door, Braking System, and the Bogie along with Propulsion System.. Surely this attempt at re-floating a Tender on different sub-assemblies being clubbed into a single procurement and supply raises doubt about Level Playing field

    " So, what started as an inquiry into alleged corruption in ICF and what was intended to create more competition and level playing field has turned out into a sinister exercise to import when we should have been proudly exploring export markets," Mr Shubhranshu told the Railway Board Chairman.
    "I feel that this inquiry into so called irregularities was designed to sabotage the greatest 'Make In India' success story," he added.
    Mr Shubhranshu in his letter told Mr Yadav to treat his letter as a formal complaint against Research Design and Standards Organisation (RDSO) and decision makers in the Railway Board.
    "If not agreed to, the undersigned will be constrained to raise the matter to the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) and PMO (Prime Minister's Office)," he wrote.
    Contrary to media reports, Mr Shubhranshu in his letter dated August 19, 2019, to Mr Yadav said the tender for electrics for the first two trainsets was won by an Indian company Medha on L1 basis.
    "In fact, two other bidders M/S Bombardier and M/S Siemens, were given counter offers as per rules, but they declined," he said.
    Refuting the charge that the tender specifications were tailored to suit the Indian company, he said Siemens and Bombardier, the major propulsion systems suppliers, had quoted their rates without any reservations and also took part in the pre-bid meetings but lost out on price.
    In the latest tender, Siemens, Alsthom and Bombardier did not quote despite his personal requests to the top officials of these companies while Cummins, CAF, BHEL, Medha, Titagarh and CRRC had participated in the tender.
    Referring to the failure of India's moon lander Vikram, Mr Subhranshu said the Indian space agency will not be importing a lander but would continue to try till it succeeds.
    "Yet, I have learnt that after much maligning of the indisputably successful Train-18 (Vande Bharat) we are thinking of importing trainsets," he wrote in his letter to Mr Yadav.
    According to officials, the realisation of Train 18 by ICF is an achievement similar to Brahmos missile and Chandrayaan.
    "We all know that it is not the outcome of a vigilance inquiry that kills the spirit of innovation, risk-taking, bold decision making and out-of-the-box thinking. It is the process of inquiry that does it in ample measure," he told Mr Yadav.

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  8. #428
    psr
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    Following the NEWS item on IR trying to import Locos worth 25,000 Crores...The Ministry had clarified that it is not doing so, and after ICF complies with the new RDSO spec changes to the TRAIN-18 , orders will be placed for upto 25 nos., as initial order...This dilly dallying along with Vigilance probe and shifting of Key Engineers and Heads of Department does not promote confidence within ICF and expect to have delays in supply of the TRAIN-18 in future.
    It is worth remembering that the entire Train-18 was designed and developed in India by ICF and RDSO and had stopped huge outflow of foreign funds , in procuring similar Trains from a foreign supplier. While a Train-18 costs approximately 100 crores each, a Similar one from other Foreign country will cost nothing less than 200 Crores. , not to forget the outflow of hard earned foreign currency...Hope the Govt., does not do witch hunting in ICF and promote the Knowledgeable Designers and Engineers , without whom, this would not have been possible.
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  9. #429
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    As per News The Train18 is back on track and Indian Railways had placed order on ICF for same. There had been revision to the specification by way of amenities and safety and RDSO had chalked out the requirements and had placed the order on ICF for 44 trains of 16 coaches each. This is a Massive order for ICF , with each one costing a little over 100 crores. ICF will be floating Tenders inviting sub assembly suppliers , including suppliers from other countries.

    The Three Phase Propulsion system along with passenger related amenities are to be through Tendering process. The Guarantee to run at 160 Kmph top speed , and higher acceleration , are some of the stipulation for the Propulsion system .
    The amenities will include Fully Air Conditioned Chair cars for comfortable day time travel , with Automatic Plug Doors and Retractable Steps to ensure passengers safety .
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  10. #430
    psr
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    Default Re: An INTRO to Locomotives..Steam /Diesel Electric / Electric.

    The ICF made LHB stainless Steel coaches which were well received both by IR and the public, seems to be developing many problems of late. In fact as many as 14 different problems have been noted so far. From Suspension Springs breakage To modified Air Cushion failure, to Interior fittings coming apart, to HOT AXLE which was never heard of in a Passenger coach, to Speed sensor failure etc., just to name a few. The defects had been many and so bad that one or two coaches have been actually Junked and taken Off Service. Apart from these IR had complaints of WHEEL BREAKAGE also leading to a few Derailments. IR had also found repairing of these coaches difficult, since fasteners ,ie., screws and bolts used had been non standard and of poor quality. All of these problems have come up within a span of 5 Years of manufacture of these coaches.
    Overall the Quality of the ICF LHB coaches had been less than satisfactory and ICF is under Quality Inspection scanner. All of this not an encouraging sign or indication, and all is NOT WELL with ICF as per IR.

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    Last edited by psr; 02-25-2020 at 10:53 AM.
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