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Thread: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    For model code 0A12 August 2017 onward, Chapter 6, page 96, bottom-center of the page. Text is the same.

    And you can go all the way back to 2001, the older 1150GS had this text, so it's not just modern bikes:

    "Do not warm up the engine with the motorcycle at standstill. Ride away immediately after starting the engine. Avoid even short warmup periods."
    Kindly reply direct me to the manual. I'd like to read about the flaw those engines have as the company says not to idle to avoid head warping.

    Edit: understood the issue. Boxer aircooled, causes head warping. Like the way I assumed. The issue is with the design. Not with the procedure.

    Also, so you understand that this procedure to take off is only for the GS and not for a S 1000? Wonder why?
    Last edited by dual disc 200; 10-11-2018 at 09:48 PM.
    Whenever there is a Rainbow in the sky, I know it's u mastering the art of Cornering. U will always be remembered brother, R.I.P Arun.

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    BMW R1200GS Adventure (US Version) 2013 - onwards, model code m0A12:

    Chapter 5, page 77, quote:

    Danger of overheating. Cooling would be inadequate if the engine were allowed to idle for a lengthy period with the motorcycle at a standstill: overheating would result. In extreme cases, the motorcycle could catch fire. Do not allow the engine to idle unnecessarily. After starting, ride off immediately.
    I get a point here. Most of the discussions in this forum are about sub 250 cc carbureted motorcycles that constitute more than 75% of the motorcycles in India.

    Also from the long essay you quoted, it is seen that it is not necessary to idle a fuel injected bike but idling may be needed in the case of carbureted motorcyles.

    Also that "after starting, ride of immediately" is about a bike that has a 1000+ cc engine which probably produce more heat in idle than an idling 200 cc motorcycle.

    Also the air-cooled engines have fins to aid in better heat dissipiation as opposed to the liquid cooled motorcycles that rely on airflow through the radiator while riding to cool the engine. The point is, a 200 cc air cooled engine at idle will not heat up as much as a liquid cooled liter bike engine. [Even my friend's Pulsar AS200 (no fins, liquid cooled) heats up more than my Apache 200 (has fins, air+oil cooled) at idle – same capacity, different cooling (and compression ratio probably), let alone higher capacity engines]

    I've seen people idling their 100 cc motorcycles in traffic signals for more than 5 minutes without any heaing. [Though I'd not recommend this considering fuel wastage and possible engine damage] Having said that, I idle my bike for about 30 seconds after cold starts. [My cold idle is 1000 rpm and after warm up, it is 1500 rpm. I idle it till the rpm oscillates between 1000-1250 rpm. If the idle is 1250+ rpm when starting the bike, I ride off right away]

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by dual disc 200 View Post
    Kindly reply direct me to the manual. I'd like to read about the flaw those engines have as the company says not to idle to avoid head warping.

    I'm not doing all your homework for you. I've provided several examples, including the model codes, chapters, and page numbers. Here's another, for the 2003 1200GS, chapter 4, page 67, same text as the 1150. If you want more, you can go do your own web searches.

    ----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

    Quote Originally Posted by ayrus View Post
    I get a point here. Most of the discussions in this forum are about sub 250 cc carbureted motorcycles that constitute more than 75% of the motorcycles in India.

    Also from the long essay you quoted, it is seen that it is not necessary to idle a fuel injected bike but idling may be needed in the case of carbureted motorcyles.

    Also that "after starting, ride of immediately" is about a bike that has a 1000+ cc engine which probably produce more heat in idle than an idling 200 cc motorcycle.

    Also the air-cooled engines have fins to aid in better heat dissipiation as opposed to the liquid cooled motorcycles that rely on airflow through the radiator while riding to cool the engine. The point is, a 200 cc air cooled engine at idle will not heat up as much as a liquid cooled liter bike engine. [Even my friend's Pulsar AS200 (no fins, liquid cooled) heats up more than my Apache 200 (has fins, air+oil cooled) at idle – same capacity, different cooling (and compression ratio probably), let alone higher capacity engines]

    I've seen people idling their 100 cc motorcycles in traffic signals for more than 5 minutes without any heaing. [Though I'd not recommend this considering fuel wastage and possible engine damage] Having said that, I idle my bike for about 30 seconds after cold starts. [My cold idle is 1000 rpm and after warm up, it is 1500 rpm. I idle it till the rpm oscillates between 1000-1250 rpm. If the idle is 1250+ rpm when starting the bike, I ride off right away]

    And most sources say that bikes will warm up faster under load than they will sitting, and the oil will circulate throughout the engine faster (higher pressure) as well. So for the tiny Indian bikes, it's even more important to get moving right away, because the engines produce even less heat. No water-cooled engine will push water through the radiator until it's up to temperature anyway; that's the whole point of the thermostat valve. So the sooner you get your motor doing work, the sooner you'll get up to operating temp.

    And yes, the quoted manuals are for a bigger bike, but the challenge was *any manufacturer* who recommends immediate operation with no warmup. Most manufacturers don't say anything one way or the other, really, though the general advice from dealers and mechanics here is to ride off immediately or nearly so, no need to set aside a specific warmup period.

    Also, yes carbureted bikes do need to warm up, but that's more to benefit the carburetor, not the engine. The original topic is oil, and as far as the oiling system is concerned, there's zero need to "get the oil up to temperature" or wait any significant length of time for the oil to circulate before getting underway.
    abhimanyu31 likes this.
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    Rusted dual disc 200's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I'm not doing all your homework for you. I've provided several examples, including the model codes, chapters, and page numbers. Here's another, for the 2003 1200GS, chapter 4, page 67, same text as the 1150. If you want more, you can go do your own web searches.

    ----consecutive posts auto-merged-----




    And most sources say that bikes will warm up faster under load than they will sitting, and the oil will circulate throughout the engine faster (higher pressure) as well. So for the tiny Indian bikes, it's even more important to get moving right away, because the engines produce even less heat. No water-cooled engine will push water through the radiator until it's up to temperature anyway; that's the whole point of the thermostat valve. So the sooner you get your motor doing work, the sooner you'll get up to operating temp.

    And yes, the quoted manuals are for a bigger bike, but the challenge was *any manufacturer* who recommends immediate operation with no warmup. Most manufacturers don't say anything one way or the other, really, though the general advice from dealers and mechanics here is to ride off immediately or nearly so, no need to set aside a specific warmup period.

    Also, yes carbureted bikes do need to warm up, but that's more to benefit the carburetor, not the engine. The original topic is oil, and as far as the oiling system is concerned, there's zero need to "get the oil up to temperature" or wait any significant length of time for the oil to circulate before getting underway.
    You couldn't get the same manual page for the S1000 from the same manufacturer right? You need not do my homework and I'm neither a kid. As said earlier, that applies to that particular engine. Period.
    Whenever there is a Rainbow in the sky, I know it's u mastering the art of Cornering. U will always be remembered brother, R.I.P Arun.

    The 5 Speed Restoration
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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by dual disc 200 View Post
    You couldn't get the same manual page for the S1000 from the same manufacturer right? You need not do my homework and I'm neither a kid. As said earlier, that applies to that particular engine. Period.

    You argue like a kid.

    For the BMW S1000R 2016 Onwards, model code 0D62, chapter 6, page 77, righthand side of the page halfway down:

    Do not allow the engine to idle unnecessarily. After starting, ride off immediately.
    For the K1600GTL August 2017 onwards, model code 0F12, chapter 6, page 87, same text as above.

    And I can find the same text in the F-series manuals too.

    Edited to add: and your original challenge was "any manufacturer", which I already proved. And then you couldn't admit you were wrong, so you tried to "move the goalposts" by claiming it was just the one year, and then when that didn't work you tried to require other model lines, and got smacked down again. You're wrong. Period.
    Last edited by The Mountain; 10-11-2018 at 10:47 PM.
    ATGATT: All The Gear, All The Time!

    Current bike: Yamaha XT1200Z Super Tenere

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    You argue like a kid.

    For the BMW S1000R 2016 Onwards, model code 0D62, chapter 6, page 77, righthand side of the page halfway down:



    For the K1600GTL August 2017 onwards, model code 0F12, chapter 6, page 87, same text as above.

    And I can find the same text in the F-series manuals too.
    Let me be the kid and you be the big man and show some mutual respect. Statements like I don't care if you build engines and I can't do your homework says the other way.

    This is for a few out there and definitely not to you as you might be a sticking to the manual sorta guy. Pardon me and let me close the session with you here.

    Guys,
    If you don't let the bike idle say for even about 20 secs, how would the O2 bung heat and allow the ECU to operate in closed loop?
    Whenever there is a Rainbow in the sky, I know it's u mastering the art of Cornering. U will always be remembered brother, R.I.P Arun.

    The 5 Speed Restoration
    The Z Restoration


    /2001 Yamaha Rx 135 5 Speed/ 1999 Yamaha RXZ 135/ 2012 Honda Dio/ ?

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by dual disc 200 View Post
    Let me be the kid and you be the big man and show some mutual respect. Statements like I don't care if you build engines and I can't do your homework says the other way.

    This is for a few out there and definitely not to you as you might be a sticking to the manual sorta guy. Pardon me and let me close the session with you here.

    Guys,
    If you don't let the bike idle say for even about 20 secs, how would the O2 bung heat and allow the ECU to operate in closed loop?

    Still can't admit you were wrong, huh?

    And are you seriously trying to say that the O2 sensor won't heat *unless* you idle first? Really? That's the exact opposite of true. Neither the O2 sensor nor the catalytic converter will get hot enough to function *unless* you put load on the engine. The cat in particular won't "light" until you've been riding several miles. That's why you should always go for a good long ride prior to getting your exhaust emissions inspection done. You're also straying rather far from the original topic of oil.
    ATGATT: All The Gear, All The Time!

    Current bike: Yamaha XT1200Z Super Tenere

    Put the phone away, put your helmet on, and ride!

    Scooters are like fat girls: fun to ride, but embarrassing if your friends see you with one.

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by knucklehead31 View Post
    Hi Guys, hope you are doing well, I am new to the community, thanks to the mods for approving my membership.

    I own a 2017 pulsar 180 it is14 months old now and I had been planning to switch the engine oil once I had exhausted all the free service coupons. It has completed 6200 kms and I was thinking of moving to at least semi-synthetic oil. I had heard a lot of praises for the Motul 5100 and was planning to put in the same, but then I thought that it wasn't a bad idea to move to a fully synthetic oil and decided to do the same. The contenders were Shell Helix Ultra 15w50, ELF moto 4 tech 10w50, Valvoline 20w50, Motul 7100 20w 50 and Motul 300V 15w50. I did a lot of research and narrowed it down to Motul 7100 20w50, though I was not able to find 20w50 grade so I ended up investing in 10w50. Paid 780 for a liter pack, which had two sets of seal on it (impressed to find that).

    My ride has done 200 kms since i switched and here are some of the initial impressions



    • Engine turns over easily (though it might be due to lower winter grade).
    • Slightly more refined sounding engine (can't tell much because the bike has done only 6200 kms so it wasn't that rough in the first place).
    • Engine runs noticeably cooler, previously I could feel the heat (not unbearable) on my legs but now that is completely gone.
    • Smoother shifts ( gear shift below 3k rpm showed some resistance but now they slot in smoothly between 2k to 3k rpm, though I don't recommend shifting at anything lower than 2.5k as it lugs the engine).
    • Slightly better throttle response.


    Till now there has been no drop in oil level (somewhere on the internet I read that it leaks in pulsars) and no leaks around the head or stickiness in exhaust.

    Thanks.
    As long as there's no dip in oil levels, you should be a happy man. Have fun.. That's what matters..
    Whenever there is a Rainbow in the sky, I know it's u mastering the art of Cornering. U will always be remembered brother, R.I.P Arun.

    The 5 Speed Restoration
    The Z Restoration


    /2001 Yamaha Rx 135 5 Speed/ 1999 Yamaha RXZ 135/ 2012 Honda Dio/ ?

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapps View Post
    Nice, I've reas on this forum that Pulsar owners find Motul 5100 (semi-synthetic) to be the best choice & balance.

    I'm getting Pulsar 220F later this month. How did you run-in the engine.
    A minute of idling, followed by 2 kms of gentle riding with engine speed not exceeding 2.5k rpm ( no lugging though, I didn't go higher than 3rd gear). Then varying the engine speeds between 3k to 4k for the first 700kms (I recommend the first service at around 700km or 1.5 months). After that I kept the engine speed limit at 4k rpm till the second service. Second service was done at 2200 kms, also I do not recommend more than 1800kms on the stock mineral oil. Congrats on your new ride.

    I put in 7100 coz of longer drain interval, the cost comes out to be almost the same for 5100 and 7100 on an annual basis, as 7100 hasn't done any harm, I guess I can stick with it.

    ----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    I'm not doing all your homework for you. I've provided several examples, including the model codes, chapters, and page numbers. Here's another, for the 2003 1200GS, chapter 4, page 67, same text as the 1150. If you want more, you can go do your own web searches.

    ----consecutive posts auto-merged----

    Also, yes carbureted bikes do need to warm up, but that's more to benefit the carburetor, not the engine. The original topic is oil, and as far as the oiling system is concerned, there's zero need to "get the oil up to temperature" or wait any significant length of time for the oil to circulate before getting underway.
    I have a question here, if that is the case then why do ECUs limit the engine speed to a certain rpm when the engine is cold.
    Last edited by knucklehead31; 10-12-2018 at 09:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Changing to fully synthetic oil : Inital Impressions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mountain View Post
    Still can't admit you were wrong, huh?

    And are you seriously trying to say that the O2 sensor won't heat *unless* you idle first? Really? That's the exact opposite of true. Neither the O2 sensor nor the catalytic converter will get hot enough to function *unless* you put load on the engine. The cat in particular won't "light" until you've been riding several miles. That's why you should always go for a good long ride prior to getting your exhaust emissions inspection done. You're also straying rather far from the original topic of oil.
    I was going thru some other threads, and I got reminded of a documentary about jap motorcycle manufacturing. It was Suzuki if I remember correctly.

    They showed the whole assembly & machining process. In the end, they mentioned something very specific. They showed a rig where the run-in and performance evaluation was taking place.

    Then they mentioned how modern performance cars and bikes don't need run-in because the manufacturers already do that for you. So apparently when you buy premium bikes or those litre class machines, they don't even need mechanical run-in.
    Last edited by Zapps; 10-15-2018 at 10:46 AM.

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