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Thread: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Quote Originally Posted by leech View Post
    So, in effect, there is no need to change our batteries until the voltage while charging drops below 14 volts? (14.20~14.25v is the charging voltage of a new amaron 9ah battery in a CBR 250)?

    battery alone will be listing 12- 12.4 volts as i have seen.
    when the bike is started and say you rev to 4-5 k rpm it should hit 14v or so.
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Quote Originally Posted by theironhorse99 View Post
    battery alone will be listing 12- 12.4 volts as i have seen.
    when the bike is started and say you rev to 4-5 k rpm it should hit 14v or so.
    Actually from what I've measured, a new/1y old battery is 12.8v to 13v at engine off, and when you idle the bike, it reads 14.2v. Revving to 4-5k rpm doesn't increase the voltage, it probably increases the amperage.
    Last edited by leech; 1 Week Ago at 11:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    @psr - I have a suspicion that shivangs rr or stator coil is slowly starting to give out, unable to recharge the battery fully. The reason for my doubt is that the new battery on his ninja, when installed and engine started up, read only 13.x Volts, instead of 14.20~V. I've tested this on my CBR, plonked in an old battery and a new one. Both the batteries read 14.20V, with the engine started. This means that a healthy charging system should put out 14.20V irrespective of old(3y) or new battery. If the new battery isn't defective too, then it stands to reason his ninja's charging system is unable to deliver the proper voltage to the battery.

    The best way to test this theory is to check the charging voltage of a new ninja 650. It should be 14V+, because it's written on the Amaron battery carton it's imperative to charge the battery at 14+V. Name:  IMG_20181012_175437.jpg
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    PS: Sachin Nair had a problem with his stator coil on the ninja 650 which wasn't giving out 14v. His battery wasnt getting charged, thus had starting trouble. A look at the starter coil confirmed burnt bits. You can see the pictures on his thread here.
    Looks like shivs bike has got the same symptoms.
    Last edited by leech; 1 Week Ago at 01:55 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Most bikes unlike cars are designed for charging a Lead acid battery which is 14.2 Volts plus or minus 0.2 volts. The float charge is at 13.6~13.9. This condition is absent in most bike charging circuit..A battery not charged for a long time..more than 10 days will initially take larger current to charge and come up to the float charge voltage level, and thereafter it will be on lesser current charge ie., at 14+ volts...
    An AGM battery ideally is fully charged at 13.9 volts, unlike a lead acid which needs 14+ volts...still AGMs can be used successfully in place of Lead acid battery. or vice versa.

    A Lithium based battery is not suitable since they are affected by ambient temperature, rate of charge and are chemically unstable as the temp., goes up...The Dream liner battery explosions and burn out are an example...similarly a recent consignment of Lithium batteries while being Air Lifted had spontaneous ignition and flight luckily survived...so an application in vehicles is asking for trouble, since one will never know when it will have a melt down. Some of the Lithium batteries in Mobiles are also example of explosion and fire..
    In vehicle application the Lead Acid battery is ideal as it is cheaper, easier to maintain and accepts vibrations and severe abuse without exploding or flaming out..
    The sealed VRLA with vent is the next best since it is able to give good CCA, is sealed, and no acid spill or top up worry.. The AGM comes next with almost same properties , is sealed maintenance free , and no acid spills to worry about.

    The vehicle's charging voltage is highly dependent on the coil and RR unit capacity, battery condition with respect to charge level, and most importantly, The RPM. To see the correct charging Voltage the RPM at idle should be as recommended , and anything higher will be adequate to satisfy the requirement.

    The Type of RR will also define the charge and regulation at different RPMs...

    Hope this post clarifies on some of the battery charging parameters .
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    If a battery takes some time to come up to 14v while charging it after a long time, as you've mentioned, I've had a puzzling experience. I left my CBR parked in the garage for 2 months, came back to find the voltage of the battery at 12.6V. I started the bike, and measured it while the engine was idling. It read 14.23-14.25v.


    I still think his stator coil is going kaput, sir. There is no way a new battery should read 13V while charging.
    Quote Originally Posted by psr View Post
    Most bikes unlike cars are designed for charging a Lead acid battery which is 14.2 Volts plus or minus 0.2 volts. The float charge is at 13.6~13.9. This condition is absent in most bike charging circuit..A battery not charged for a long time..more than 10 days will initially take larger current to charge and come up to the float charge voltage level, and thereafter it will be on lesser current charge ie., at 14+ volts...
    An AGM battery ideally is fully charged at 13.9 volts, unlike a lead acid which needs 14+ volts...still AGMs can be used successfully in place of Lead acid battery. or vice versa.

    A Lithium based battery is not suitable since they are affected by ambient temperature, rate of charge and are chemically unstable as the temp., goes up...The Dream liner battery explosions and burn out are an example...similarly a recent consignment of Lithium batteries while being Air Lifted had spontaneous ignition and flight luckily survived...so an application in vehicles is asking for trouble, since one will never know when it will have a melt down. Some of the Lithium batteries in Mobiles are also example of explosion and fire..
    In vehicle application the Lead Acid battery is ideal as it is cheaper, easier to maintain and accepts vibrations and severe abuse without exploding or flaming out..
    The sealed VRLA with vent is the next best since it is able to give good CCA, is sealed, and no acid spill or top up worry.. The AGM comes next with almost same properties , is sealed maintenance free , and no acid spills to worry about.

    The vehicle's charging voltage is highly dependent on the coil and RR unit capacity, battery condition with respect to charge level, and most importantly, The RPM. To see the correct charging Voltage the RPM at idle should be as recommended , and anything higher will be adequate to satisfy the requirement.

    The Type of RR will also define the charge and regulation at different RPMs...

    Hope this post clarifies on some of the battery charging parameters .

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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Hi All,

    so the inner child in me just couldn't let me be in peace and my hands were already itching to go for some more components (both essential and non essential) which would enable me to have sufficient stockpile for future servicing and maintenance of this wonderful machine which as of now has ticked all the right boxes..

    So time for some more updates on this thread...

    NEW SPARES:

    So as luck would have it i barely managed a week before dropping a message to Jerson, Bike Moksha (www.bikemokhsa.in) to get hold of some more spares in order to restore my "Green Elephant to her full glory and also some of the other components which i may just require in the near future (may be many thousands of kms afterwards). Jerson was very prompt in organising all the items and shipping them at my doorstep within a weeks time which is really commendable considering all the horror stories i have heard of Kawasaki owners frustrated with the lackadaisical attitude of the SVCs when it comes to stocking and organising critical items when it comes to taking are of their beloved.

    Anyways, i ended up ordering the following items:

    1) Throttle & Clutch Grips: For those who have followed my CBR 250R thread (Link: https://www.xbhp.com/talkies/general...-cbr-250r.html) and are well versed with the level of work done on that motorcycle, I am sure this comes as no surprise that these two items were one of the first few to be replaced on my Ninja. Motorcycle rider and journalist Arri Henning has covered the same on his descriptive video pertaining to restoring a bike to factory like condition which one may refer to and perhaps consider carrying out the necessary tasks on their motorcycles for the simple joy of having that "new bike" feeling.



    The throttle and clutch grips are the main point of contact for the rider to his motorcycle which understandably over a period of time being rubber component will wear out due to natural ageing. Putting on new grips will completely transform the feel of the handlebar for the owner. So this was in my on priority "to do" list.

    2) Headlight Bulb Dust Cover Boots: As shared in an earlier post on this thread (Link: https://www.xbhp.com/talkies/superbi...ml#post1344018) the mechanic at Sameer Bajaj's shop managed to carve out the OEM factory fitted dust cover rubber boots in order to accomodate the LED headlight bulb heatsink which not only was an eyesore to me but also a point of dust and water to enter inside the stock reflector which may later damage or even make the overall light reflectivity go down significantly. Plus i wanted to have the option of reverting back to stock Halogens in the event the testing of LED bulbs doesn't turn out to be the way i wanted the overall improvement to be. So a pair was ordered and kept ready for the eventuality. OEM Pair (from manufactured by Stanley) costed me Rs. 1,300/-

    3) Ignition Key Cover: The original black key cover plastic cover holder pins were found to be worn out so as a cosmetic restoration i got hold of 3 pcs each of them costing about Rs. 90/- which is pretty cheap. Fitting this won't be that difficult so i am happy that i had more than enough replacements for the same incase me or my mechanic manages to damage it somehow

    4) RHS Engine Casing Gasket: Even though i have not come across any of the Ninjas having to replace their clutch pack in India (unless one is a moron and has not been nice to his/her bike) i felt it was wise to have it in stock just in case for inspection purpose if we ever have to pop the Clutch side engine casing. Unlike CBR, Kawasaki OEM clutch side gasket is quite expensive - Rs. 850/- which one looks at it from any angle is simply exorbitant! But nonetheless being an unofficial spare parts hoarder I was happy to have it in my parts kitty. At a later stage i may end up ordering the LHS Stator coil section engine casing gasket as well (Just can't seem to control myself! )







    Pic 1 - 3: Goodies ordered from Bikemoksha. All of the items shown above are OEM genuine Kawasaki, Thailand spares as mentioned on the respective parts sticker.

    So I guess whether I like it or not, in all probability i will be following the footsteps of my Honda CBR 250R "Littlebird" where no stones were left unturned to restore her to her full glory. My concept is simple but clear, mechanically and electrically my noble steed/steeds in this matter have to be in 100% clean bill of health or else i won't feel good otherwise. For every penny i spend on them i will take out my money's worth by riding the daylights of them which in turn provides me the opportunity to enjoy them and use them the way the manufacturer has designed them to be and secondly of course justify my incessant need to hoard spares so much so that my parents have a questioning look on their face every time the delivery boys land up with consignments every now and then!

    X - GRIP MOBILE HOLDER:

    In my last few trips, i realised that if i ever wanted to refer to online map application on my phone for navigation purpose, it becomes quite a task given that i have to stop, take out my riding gloves, unlock my phone, turn on the app and then see if the route i have taken is correct or not. If for any reason i need to refer again then repeating this whole process becomes really very annoying. Based on reviews i was initially tempted to get hold of reputed mobile phone RAM mounts for the said purpose however, given the quite steep price tag they carry in India and me being very "baniya" cheap i decided otherwise. As always it always helps to ask around and it just so happened that i shared my requirements with Varun Aggarwal, owner of Transformerz (Shop site Link: https://www.transformerz.co.in/) who suggested an alternative 'Chini Bhai' option available on Amazon (Link: https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07...?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which also came with an inbuilt charger and assorted mounts for the purpose of installing the same on more or less any motorcycle. The power can be tapped from the parking light connectors from almost any motorcycle which allows one to only turn "ON" the charger only if ignition key has been turned to "ON" position thus, avoiding any unnecessary parasitic current draw taking place from the battery in the event the motorcycle was not in operation.

    I am sharing a video link which should give the readers an idea about the same:



    Many thanks to Varun for being selfless and guiding this idiot to the right direction. Before the X grip mobile holder arrived, i decided to go through numerous videos giving details about both positives and negatives related to using such phone mounts on a motorcycle. I had two primary concerns:

    1) Whether the phone mount would hinder with the free movement of the handlebar to full tilt angles be it LHS/RHS side.

    2) Whether the phone mount be able to hold the phone properly and not let it fly off in the event my green elephant experiences potholed and speed breaker infested roads which considering the conditions we have in India is something one should expect at any point of time right?















    Pic 4 - 10: Handlebar Mock Test by looking at handlebar movement to full tilt by swiveling it from LHS to RHS.

    As expected the X - Grip phone mount holder with in-built charger arrived in typical Amazon fashion and the delivery was quite prompt. Even though the product is chinese, the overall build quality was really very good. I guess if one searches hard enough, in major cities this same product might be available at a much cheaper price however, given the remote location I was residing in, I decided to go ahead with the item displayed on Amazon. My initial impressions were good which says a lot about the slow but steady improvement China is making in producing quality product while reducing the overall cost of the item due to mass production - very typical of economies of scale right?

    The phone mount also came with a rubber band type holder which can be stretched and holds the phone tightly once the phone is mounted onto X - Grip properly. I guess, once i connect the Micro USB cable below to charge my phone, it would also act like a secondary mount which would protect my phone in the event the unthinkable happens. The ball mount which came along with the X-Grip phone holder was something which didn't catch my eyes as it would allow me to mount this set up only at the very edge of the handlebar - something that allows the phone to be exposed to direct wind buffeting, huge amount of dust loading and other elements thus reducing the life of my phone considerably while increasing the possibilities of mishap by quite a bit considering the high speeds this 72 bhp machine is capable of achieving.













    Pic 11 - 16 : X Grip Mobile holder picked up from Amazon. Quality is very good and comes with rubber holder. But the Ball mount was something which i felt wouldn't work on my Ninja.

    I wanted some sort of mounting system which would allow me to place this X - Grip phone holder to be placed somewhere in the centre thus, shielding the phone from direct wind buffeting, rain droplets from hitting it as the OEM windshield would deflect a significant amount of the same hopefully would also give me ample amount of time to slow down and put the phone inside in the event there is a heavy downpour which when touring extensively is always a probability. So the hunt began...


    U-BALL JOINT FOR X-GRIP MOBILE HOLDER:

    A little bit of research yielded results and i was initially directed to many options provided by RAM mounts which catered to a wide variety of U-Ball joints which makes installation and placement of the X - Grip phone holder to almost any position i may choose. But now having tasted the cheaper but really good quality component from China, i decided to snoop around in Aliexpress. Very soon i came across a compatible U - Ball joint which would serve my purpose (Link: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Moto...7eb24c4dK4zywB). So an order was placed quickly over Aliexpress. Though the waiting not that long and when the item arrived from China, i was quite excited to open up the package and see whether the product is as it has been advertised online.

    And trust me when I tell you this.. I was not at all disappointed! The U-Ball joint was of really good quality and came with all the necessary kit to hook it up tightly to the handlebar. Regardless, i decided to connect it to the X - Grip phone holder in order to get a feel of the same and see how much height increment has taken place with the installation of the same.















    Pic 17 - 23: U-Ball Joint picked up from Aliexpress for my X - Grip phone mount. Quality is really very good and worth the money spent, came with all the required accessories. Highly recommended.

    Little bit of mock testing allowed me to check and confirm that this phone mount and the add on mount procured should fit on my "Green Elephant" just fine. Hopefully, i would be able to do the installation and test it out soon as i did have some mega trip plans coming up very soon where ready access to phone for navigation would be a boon especially when i riding through the unknown.

    CHARGE GATE DEBATE...THE REAL TRUTH - "AS PER THE MANUAL" :

    So the moment I was done with the necessary battery replacement with Amaron on my Ninja, i shared the pictures of the install and subsequent videos recorded while monitoring the voltages from the terminal before and after start up with both @psr sir and fellow K.N.O.G member Sudeep Chakraborty. Both the gentlemen immediately pointed out that the engine idling was set pretty low and that I must manually raise the idling to 1,300 rpm (when the engine is at its peak operating temperature) which would allow the stator coil and the RR unit to provide 14 - 14.40 volts to the battery and the necessary current for the rest of the electrical components on my "Green Elephant". I always had a doubt about the 998 - 1100 rpm my Ninja was idling at since, the time of purchase and I do remember asking about the same to the previous owner to which the earlier owner had mentioned that he had never fiddled with anything and that the idling was set from the showroom/factory. Hence, i decided to not to mess around with it. Even with current idling rpms set at 998 - 1100, the stator coil and RR unit were still providing current ranging from 13.18 - 14.0 volts as measured on the multimeter but not steady at any point of time which confirmed that the battery was still getting the required voltage for charging, just not a steady current. But having said that, when the vehicle is under operation the stator coil and the generator would be rotating at speeds of between 2,500 - 4,000 rpm minimum which is more than sufficient voltage range for charging and normal running around with my Ninja. So putting all the concerns to rest, both the stator coil and the RR unit were healthy, happy and functioning just fine.

    To keep things in perspective, a video done by Falcon Riders India will clearly highlight the issue where the engine idling set from showroom/factory is roughly 998 - 1,100 rpm:



    On further enquiry, both Sudeep Chakraborty & @psr sir suggested to raise the rpms to the service manual recommended 1,300 (+/- 50 rpms) which would allow the generator to spin at minimum rate to provide a steady current. I did check the service manual for cross reference and came up with the following excerpts which corroborated with what both these gentlemen were recommending.









    Pic 24 - 27: Recommended Engine Idling to be set at @ 1,300 rpm (+/- 50 rpm variable Ok). Rated Stator output @ 4,000 rpm. Manual idling adjustment screw located on the RHS section of the engine casing above the clutch actuation lever.

    As the pics above will confirm, for those who are unaware unlike Honda CBR 250R and other EFI based motorcycle brands where everything is controlled by the ECU/ECM , Kawasaki decided to go old school and keep the engine idling manually adjustable using a simple adjuster screw located on the RHS section just above the clutch actuation lever. Turning is clockwise/anti-clockwise allows the rider to adjust the engine idling rpm as per required. Thus, based on the suggestion of the respective gentlemen, i let the engine idle till the temperatures reached operating levels and then adjusted the idling screw to set the engine @ 1,300 rpm. After that the voltage was checked on both the terminals which confirmed what was shared earlier - it was now hovering steadily between 14.29 - 14.40 volts.

    If I am free I shall try and update this thread as quickly as possible as in all probability I would be most likely out touring extensively thus, may not be in a position to update this thread at least for a month or so (still working on fine tuning the plan!)

    Regardless, more spare parts are on the pipeline (what can i say it is an incurable disease!! ).


    Hope we learned something new today...


    Cheers,
    Last edited by shv18; 6 Days Ago at 01:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Well, that's 2 issues out of the way. You solved the low idling problem as well as ensured the RR unit is churning at full strength. I forgot the bike had a low idling problem. @14V+ the AGM would be charging at just the right speed for the battery to be happy and healthy. A new Amaron 12v9ah battery when fully charged reads 13V, so you can imagine what charging is gonna happen at 13.2V. Just enough to start the engine in normal conditions, but definitely not optimum.

    If your bike is in the garage for more than 2 months at a stretch, consider using a battery tender. You get them off Amazon too.
    Last edited by leech; 6 Days Ago at 03:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Quote Originally Posted by leech View Post
    Well, that's 2 issues out of the way. You solved the low idling problem as well as ensured the RR unit is churning at full strength. I forgot the bike had a low idling problem. @14V+ the AGM would be charging at just the right speed for the battery to be happy and healthy. A new Amaron 12v9ah battery when fully charged reads 13V, so you can imagine what charging is gonna happen at 13.2V. Just enough to start the engine in normal conditions, but definitely not optimum.

    If your bike is in the garage for more than 2 months at a stretch, consider using a battery tender. You get them off Amazon too.
    Buddy, clearly you have not understood the process of how charging works on a motorcycle. When you use your motorcycle on daily/weekly basis do you ride while being @ idling speeds or do you raise the rpm by applying more throttle as per the road conditions ahead to accelerate? Unless you follow the earlier method, the battery always gets the required voltage to float charge during normal operation/riding. All motorcycles more or less have a "Shunt Type" RR unit installed from the factory where once, the battery has reached its peak charge the RR unit will "shunt" the current away from the battery and transfer the excess energy back to the ground. If the battery is constantly loaded with current post being fully charged and the system continues to provide excess current (may be due to a circuit failure), it would result in overcharging the battery thus the end result - the battery will swell up and explode under your seat!

    The video below will give the readers an idea of how a "Shunt Type" RR unit works Vs a MOSFET type in a vehicle:



    The correct way to measure loading from the stator and the RR unit is to raise the engine at various levels upto rated 4000 - 5000 rpm and then check the voltage at the terminals to see how much generation is actually taking place. If the voltage output at the terminals is still unsteady or else higher/lower than a specified range then either the stator or the RR unit might be on its way out.

    Coming back to my scenario, even if I would have kept the idling the way it was, the battery would have still charged just fine as i simply don't start my bike and let it idle for 10 mins at the parking lot, without using it and then switching it back "OFF". I use my "Green Elephant" normally like any other motorcycles I have owned in which case due to engine rpms varying between 2,500 - 4,000 during normal operation the generator inside is spinning more than @ 1,300 rpm vis a vis ideal scenario for it to provide the required current to the RR unit to charge, shunt and divert to electrical systems or ground as in when required.


    Hope this clarifies everything...

    Cheers,
    Last edited by shv18; 6 Days Ago at 08:56 AM.
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    Quote Originally Posted by shv18 View Post
    Hi All,

    so the inner child in me just couldn't let me be in peace and my hands were already itching to go for some more components (both essential and non essential) which would enable me to have sufficient stockpile for future servicing and maintenance of this wonderful machine which as of now has ticked all the right boxes..

    So time for some more updates on this thread...
    .................................................. .................................................. .........................................
    As the pics above will confirm, for those who are unaware unlike Honda CBR 250R and other EFI based motorcycle brands where everything is controlled by the ECU/ECM , Kawasaki decided to go old school and keep the engine idling manually adjustable using a simple adjuster screw located on the RHS section just above the clutch actuation lever. Turning is clockwise/anti-clockwise allows the rider to adjust the engine idling rpm as per required. Thus, based on the suggestion of the respective gentlemen, i let the engine idle till the temperatures reached operating levels and then adjusted the idling screw to set the engine @ 1,300 rpm. After that the voltage was checked on both the terminals which confirmed what was shared earlier - it was now hovering steadily between 14.29 - 14.40 volts.

    If I am free I shall try and update this thread as quickly as possible as in all probability I would be most likely out touring extensively thus, may not be in a position to update this thread at least for a month or so (still working on fine tuning the plan!)

    Regardless, more spare parts are on the pipeline (what can i say it is an incurable disease!! ).


    Hope we learned something new today...


    Cheers,
    Most Manufacturers do provide a Set Idle screw by which Idle RPM can be adjusted...In MPFi vehicles this is done through either a Physical Throttle blade rest, adjustment, or Air screw which would adjust the amount of Air under idle condition...Some vehicles have both ...

    If the RR or Stator coils had fried then the voltage will never be able to reach 14.2~14.5 Volts, and in operation, more coils will get fried and smoke will definitely come out of the generator...at least the smell of the burn will be there for long time..

    Shv18 it is good that you have learned so much from your FZ18 days on both the Mechanical and Electronics of the vehicles you use. It will definitely help you .

    Good Luck..
    Last edited by psr; 6 Days Ago at 01:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Something Mean Something Green: My Kawasaki Ninja 650

    @shiv18 i do know the basics of how an RR/alternator unit works. All I said was, if the charging voltage at correct idle isn't 14+V, then you have a problem. If the charging voltage at 5k rpm isn't 14+V, you have a problem.

    Regards.
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