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Thread: TBC-thermal barrier coating

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    Addicted vikaskurup's Avatar
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    Default TBC-thermal barrier coating

    well this might be a question or suggestion...why dont we do thermal barrier coating to the engines..basically thermal barrier coatings consist of four layers: the metal substrate, metallic bond coat, thermally grown oxide, and ceramic topcoat. The ceramic topcoat is typically composed of yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ) which is desirable for having very low conductivity while remaining stable at nominal operating temperatures typically seen in applications. Recent advancements in finding an alternative for YSZ ceramic topcoat identified many novel ceramics (rare earth zirconates) having superior performance at temperatures above 2200 F, however with inferior fracture toughness compared to that of YSZ. This ceramic layer creates the largest thermal gradient of the TBC and keeps the lower layers at a lower temperature than the surface.

    here is a link to more of tbc
    Thermal barrier coating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    doing tbc we can cut down the friction between the metallic parts of bike thus reducing the energy to be wasted into heat energy and we get maximum output from the bike.well i know that we should have a really good crankshaft to take up the load.i inquired about tbc in india but its only done for some german machines which come here since its cheap,and its done in very rural industrial areas..abroad tbc is done to hotrods to get max output from the vehicle.
    rather than engine mods which can screw up the reliability we can do something like this.even because there is almost 0% heat engery emitted between the parts the oil will remain the same and not become burned even when the vehicle has gone in 10000 x ...kms.we have used carbon fibre and nitrogen gas concept from the aviation industry but its weird to find out why people dont consider tbc in india..we can have both power as well as fuel efficiency with engine reliability plus we can have a liquid cooled engine ride on a air cooled engine...what do ull guys have to say...if u find anymore info plz reply.

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    Rusted ken cool's Avatar
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    Rusted Ricci's Avatar
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    It does sound like a new technology , maybe not caught on yet. But the aerospace refernce may indicate a different utility , it speaks of higher insulation of metal parts exposed to high temperature fluid . Hard contact created friction probably isn't tolerable by this coating , such as piston rings against the cylinder wall.
    Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.

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    Rusted Ricci's Avatar
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    Aha, that's good. I'll read up those links , thanks . Maybe it's cost and/or manufacturing complexity for use in mass production that's the hiccup, for non-premium products. The names ( BMW ) and applications ( hot rods = customs ) suggest that price is rather high.
    Last edited by Ricci; 08-23-2009 at 02:48 PM. Reason: update
    Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.

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    Default re ricci

    hey Ricci
    yes the cost is high...i had called 2-3 places in patna...first they were refusing then one agreed but only for some engine parts they are charging 25000 which includes the block piston and few gears....and told that will take them around a month to do it just like u do hard chrome to chrome parts.the thickness of each part should be kept the same so it takes times.but i guess its worth it...didnt have the time to follow them up...this was 2-3 years back.

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    Super Moderator Old Fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikaskurup View Post
    we have used carbon fibre and nitrogen gas concept from the aviation industry but its weird to find out why people dont consider tbc in india..we can have both power as well as fuel efficiency with engine reliability plus we can have a liquid cooled engine ride on a air cooled engine...what do ull guys have to say...if u find anymore info plz reply.
    Quote Originally Posted by vikaskurup View Post
    hey Ricci
    yes the cost is high
    ^You have partly answered your question here itself. All products are a judicious (read profitable) mix of engineering and commerce. So that usually effectively rules out such specialist operations as a part of some manufacturer's production set up.

    The TBC you've mentioned here has relevance. Sure. But there are issues why it is not seen around.

    1. Our present day heat engines loose a pretty large part of the energy released by the fuel during combustion through heat transfer through engine parts. Thats both good and bad. Bad because we waste energy. Good because our present metallurgy will in any case not be able to handle all that heat lying around. Try draining the coolant and driving around

    Thermal Barrier Coating of the piston crown, the combustion chamber and the valve faces retards rapid heat loss through them. But all that you gain here is a teeny weeny fractional gain in thermal efficiency as long as the pistion is close to TDC. Once it starts moving down, the uncoated cylinder walls get exposed and a strong temperature gradient exists bringing thermal gains to a naught quickly. And that tiny gain at appreciable expense, in our tiny engines that empower our Pulsars and ZMAs and R15s don't make the trouble worth while.

    2. The metallurgical quality of our engine's componentry does not justify the use of TBC's. To put things into perspective in relation to engine loading, the R1 makes about 170 bhp/ltr while our P220 DTSi makes do with about 95 bhp/ltr. The alloy crystal lattice has to be a lot more homogeneous and display predictable behavior under high thermal and mechanical stresses to handle the kind of power generation expected of bikes like the R1. And assuring such quality comes at a cost. In this perspective, the Pulsar and the R1 have as much in common between them as the commonality between apples and oranges - neither tastes like a banana. You quoted aviation as an industry that uses cutting edge technology. I'll give an example from there itself. All turbine blades are machined from a single crystal thats grown under controlled conditions. A very expensive thing to do but then you can't fix a stalled aircraft engine by the 'cloud-side' can you?. Even the R1 comes nowhere to the criticality here in terms of reliability and efficiency.

    It took about 2 decades for PTFE to percolate down to our humble non-stick cookware from the outside of the re-entry space vehicles where it formed the ablative layer. Ceramic coatings and their allied developments still struggle with suspect mechanical properties even though their thermal properties are exemplary. So handling ceramics, even as a metal suspension or as a part of metal lattice, is an engineering challenge for it to be done on a routine basis. We shall have to do with the usual carbon steel, duralmin, inconel and cast iron for quite sometime to come.

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    Default re old fox

    hey oldfox
    thanks for the info...doing some more study on it...lets see what i come across.

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    Rusted Ricci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Fox View Post
    1. Our present day heat engines loose a pretty large part of the energy released by the fuel during combustion through heat transfer through engine parts. Thats both good and bad. Bad because we waste energy. Good because our present metallurgy will in any case not be able to handle all that heat lying around.
    The supposed idea of these coatings is not to let the heat transfer to the metal components , retaining the heat in the gases and hence higher pressure. But as you noted below .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Fox View Post
    Thermal Barrier Coating of the piston crown, the combustion chamber and the valve faces retards rapid heat loss through them. But all that you gain here is a teeny weeny fractional gain in thermal efficiency as long as the pistion is close to TDC. Once it starts moving down, the uncoated cylinder walls get exposed and a strong temperature gradient exists bringing thermal gains to a naught quickly. And that tiny gain at appreciable expense, in our tiny engines that empower our Pulsars and ZMAs and R15s don't make the trouble worth while.
    Which I mentioned about the coatings sustaining friction from piston motion, I assumed the entire cylinder would be coated not having read the article before that . If the coating isn't on all surfaces exposed to combustion gases , it will lead to heat loss, and possible higher localized temperature hotspots . That could be worse .

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Fox View Post
    It took about 2 decades for PTFE to percolate down to our humble non-stick cookware from the outside of the re-entry space vehicles where it formed the ablative layer. Ceramic coatings and their allied developments still struggle with suspect mechanical properties even though their thermal properties are exemplary. So handling ceramics, even as a metal suspension or as a part of metal lattice, is an engineering challenge for it to be done on a routine basis. We shall have to do with the usual carbon steel, duralmin, inconel and cast iron for quite sometime to come.
    OF
    It's been 20+ years since the first TBC coatings were used , as per one of the linked articles.

    Yes, that's why turbine blades application may be fine, but not inside an ICE. But there are carbon-ceramic brake discs, friction-intensive application though quite differing in requirement - a disc needs high friction , the piston rings are better off with lower friction.
    Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.

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    Default re ricci

    hey but what about the gears and the bearings

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