General discussion approved

reply in bold ...

I used to think on the same lines, before, then I saw and read bout the Mighty Busa, ever wondered why its for 14Lacs ? That too for a 1.3L mill ? Its was the fastest production bike of its time, from Suzuki, now compare it to another Suzuki, the Swift, runs on the 1.3L mill, but speed ? power ? and just so that you know, the Busa returns more kms to litre than the Swift
1.5Lacs for the Nano is a good thing, now at the same price you get the R15, more power,speed and fuel efficiency !

Nano or BMW, first & foremost thing to understand is economy. Did you know that Germany has taxi's plied on BMW & Merc's? Another tip, the C250R STD sold in India costs not more than 1.5L Ex showroom anywhere in the country, while the STD cost about $3999 here at local showroom. The conversion works to 1.87L.

Coming to answer your point on a 500cc motorcycle for less than a Lakh, I'm not sure if there's any motorcycle that's sold anywhere in the world that costs less than a Lakh. Let's take it for the point of discussion, a product is always made for the demand & not the other way.

There's a huge opportunity for cars, people are obsessed with cars as we were all deprived of good products for over 50 years & its only in the last 15 years we're seeing competitive products & affordable ones in the last 3-4 years with the raising disposable incomes.

Having enough said on economy, a 623cc for a car is just like 49cc on a motorcycle, but not 500. If it were a realistic comparison, a 500 cc should be compared to atleast a 2-3L engines in car, for the present economy we have

Again the comparison is incorrect; check out the power ratio on the two wheeler vs car, there's an answer hidden in it.

Again technology does matter; talking from a very base point of view ZMA & 150cc bikes are carb'd while Alto is Fi which has precision intake compared to carb'd engines. To me, its really a good surprise on the 18Kmpl of Alto.

the Busa only costs 14 lac in India. (Mighty taxes)

it is priced at 6.7 lac in the US.

very similar to the Swift.

so does the "bikes are priced more than cars" theory still stand?

+1. And Remember for those 6L odd rupees you would be in the premium end of the two-wheelermarket whereas in car market you would be in 'cattle class'

The price differential in India is primarily due to low (perceived or real I don't know) demand for higher cubic capacity bikes, leading to lack of investment in producing these, leading to imports having high duties

And why low demand? Because most of the junta (including yours truly) is obssessed with mileage. Y? Because petrol prices here are amongst highest in the world. So people do not want to buy 'two-wheeler' which returns only 16-20kmpl.

So root of the problem is high petrol prices in India. Tax petrol less, bring down its price, obssession with mileage reduces, curiousity, interest and demand in higher capacity bikes increases, local investment will follow and then one day we will also be able to buy a Busa for 6L or even less. Till then the only Busa most of us can afford is the one Bovine kind has a liking for

Although some of the points are repeated, here is my view.

- Lesser demand. So tough to make profit by selling large quantities for less margin.
- Alto weighs 725 kg and power is 47 bhp. Power to weight is 0.06 bhp/kg
Karizma weighs 150 kg and power is 17 bhp. Power to weight is 0.11 bhp/kg
This means a bigger engine returns lesser power and a smaller engine returns more power. This means the bike is not tuned for mileage but the car is. Also the bike has better acceleration than the car.
- More RnD is needed for the bike as compared to a car of same cc. Increase in price.
- Mechanics need to be trained more for higher cc bikes. More cost again.
- I guess Nano was produced with the aim of selling very large numbers with less margin and making a profit. Though it was very ambitious, to keep the production costs less than 1.5L they had to use cheaper methods. Resulting in a car that can hardly be called a car. I don't think this possible with a 500 cc vehicle in India. For that it should be a first gen splendor or Bajaj Byk (if anyone remembers) with a 500 cc engine and hope for selling large numbers.

Thanks xBhpians for your views! I am learning..

From your replies, I understand that even though the cost to make a higher capacity bike is less, Manufacturers are charging way higher because of very low demand.

If so, in developed countries, the demand for higher capacity bikes is there. Even there, (As aargee pointed out the price of CBR250R) the prices are high, why?

exactly! There is a increase of almost 7 lakhs for the import taxes. Then, an Indian company can sure make a similar product and for sure it'll cost less than the 7lac duty.. isn't this a big opportunity for indian makers?

very true! this is a major hindrant..

Again, you need to compare Apples to Apples;
If we were to compare Nano vs a 500cc (including the RE C5), then they're incorrect. Reason being that, Nano is a VFM, entry level, whatever you call, in cars. However RE C5 is a life style motorcycle. Probably a good comparison would be Merc, BMW which is more of a life style.

BTW, the motorcycle market in developed countries are more of saturated; very less in demand compared to India. The price of C250R is a little over 30K than India probably because of exporting cost.

That is the one I explained in one word - ECONOMY

Check out another interesting observation...
SX4, though is a sports model in US, the price conversion works to about Rs 7.7L which is 150Bhp & needless to talk on quality; while SX4 is being promoted as premium in India for a price of 7.3L as base version producing 104 PS (roughly about 99 Bhp) & needless to compare with the US standard. Anyway, let me stop with cars for now.

Put it this way...
If I were to manufacture a motorcycle that is capable of carrying 3 people or a max of 210 Kg kerb with a price tag of 50K, top speed of 60 Kmph & 60 Kmpl FE & sell it at only 4 metro's in India, would I be able to sell?

If I were to manufacture a motorcycle with low sprung seat with an inline twin 250cc, FI, ABS, 30 Kmpl & top speed of 160 Kmph & sell it at Tier 3 cities, would I be able to sell?

Point - Product technology & quality improves only on a consumer driven market.. India is yet to become a consumer driven market.

PS - I really don't wish for twin or single 500cc to be available for an affordable price until the chaotic traffic conditions are taken care. Until then, the huge import tax are completely justified

Really kind of you to explain in simple terms-thanks. You are helping everyone here in this forum with your knowledge!

true.. but sir when our roads will become suitable for higher cc bikes ??

Not entering this discussion since most points have already been posted, but coming to the defense of the Nano. Its more car per rupee than you can imagine.

Let's start with questions; 650cc car engine that puts 30 Bhp available for 1.5L versus a 500cc motorcycle engine that puts 35 Bhp available for 1L.

Here's a good article to understand the income levels; check the Income Levels and Poverty - India

In the country of "how much" & "what mileage" everyone expects VFM & only VFM products. This is primarily the reason why Nano should sell here. In the developed nation, Nano will be marketed as high FE car. One should also remember that cars like Nano (or even Suzuki Swift) might be used as second car or for a single person compared to a family in India.

Leaving the market economics aside, does it really cost as much to design & manufacture a CBR250R as a Nano?

Other way of saying is that, if CBR250R sells as much a a Nano, should its price come down drastically. If not, why?

thats the point, i was trying to make, if the sales increase, prices should come down, but manufacturers mostly don't do it that way and enjoy more profit.

i fact, they do it exactly opposite - if sales do not pick up then they will reduce the price to increase sales, otherwise if the bike is selling well, they might increase its cost by a few thousand rupees in next year by bringing in a new paint scheme.