Samarth 619

2 more Honda's with Automatic Dual Clutch Transmission.

It seems Honda is in no mood to make fast bikes anymore. Obviously, people get old and then they need reliable and easier to use steeds. So, HONDA will launch two new models featuring the DCT automatic gearbox in 2012.

DCT is now in it's second generation and is lighter and more compact than the first.

The two new models will be called the NS700S and NS700X. Both will use the same 670cc parallel-twin, 270-degree crank engine, as used in the firm's Integra, which appears to be similar to the DN-01 but is infact quite different. The Integra was launched to the world's press just a few days ago.

The NS700S is expected to be an all-new 'naked' bike and the NS700X is expected to be an all-new bike with 'all-road' styling. Think Crossrunner and you probably won't be far off.

VFR1200R... Hmm... the first Honda bike with DCT technology. But can it substitute a human? In sports mode, it downshifts at every given chance, interfering with the biker's judgement of the situation.

Often we upshift when we reach a cruising speed. And we don't upshift if we need to overtake just then, largely irrelevant of the rpm.
So, how can electronics judge all this, based on just the rpm reading?

Now, I very well know that VFR has a manual mode too, but is it exciting to press a thumb button, compared to toe shifting?
I really miss the days when the focus while building bikes used to be good aspects like "lightness, agility, handling, power, etc." Today, its all tech, tech, tech. Anyways...

We don't think Honda will stop there and expect to see DCT appear in more of the firm's current bikes later in 2012.



Read more: Two more DCT Hondas in 2012 - Motorcycle news: New bikes - Visordown

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tanay

Bring on the scooters!

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antz.bin

Having driven the Honda Civic AT (the Car), I feel I can comment on the bold bit.

Sports mode is there for a purpose. Its there so that you can extract max performance on a racetrack. Hence short-shifting is not something which will happen there.

When on a regular road, there is no point in using the sports mode (unless you want extra power / precise shifts during overtaking etc.). However you can still control Upshifts/Downshifts using the provided buttons (paddle shifters on the car a la F1 cars ) even when in sports mode. Downshifts will happen automatically if you are riding in too high a gear thus avoiding any engine snatching.

The electronics judge the proper gear not from RPM position but from throttle position. RPM results from the selected gear as per the throttle position. i.e. If you wring the throttle, the bike will automatically shift to the lowest gear whose RPM will be closest to peak torque and start its fastest possible acceleration. The upshifts will also happen automatically leading to the fastest drag timings. The DCT system will minimise the time taken for the downshift to around 1/100th of a second and hence minimise the time YOU would take in manually doing the downshift/upshift which will usually take a minimum of 1/2 a second per gear.

You might compare it to the variomatic scooters we usually ride but believe me modern ATs are a lot more fun to drive than the underpowered Activa.

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Samarth 619

@ Antz.bin: I agree with most of the part about sports mode. I would love to have paddle shifters on a car, because you can keep your hands on the steering so it has some practical advantage.

But thumb shifters on a bike? What's the advantage? Maybe slightly less effort?

Given what you said, even from throttle position I, the rider is not in complete control in AT. Think about it- how about I want the response of lower gears while keeping constant throttle? I often do so when planning for an overtake on my P180... I linger in 3rd gear searching for the right opportunity and then overtake. Wouldn't an AT shift me to 5th gear and delay my overtake?

I'm not sure about this AT as never tested a bike with AT on it. So, correct me if the above para is wrong somewhere...

And CVT is not upto the level of DCT in any case, neither in performance, nor in mileage. I think we both agree on this.

What we might regard as true improvement is Honda's current MotoGP Transmission- the almost ultimate transmission. It gives manual shifts with Zero Power loss in upshifts, and smoothness like anything. Stoner just shifts slick, without even leaving the throttle- that's so damn cool!


@ tanay: Both are bikes. But, maybe calling them scooters was "pun intended", was it?

Satyamzma

would love to shift gears by pressing button on Indian bikes

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RanjithMN

@Samarth
But thumb shifters on a bike? What's the advantage? Maybe slightly less effort?
I have used them on a SUZUKI's Burgman 650 which is a MAXI Scooter.It will be more elegant for scooters and yes obviously easier.and like you mentioned its pretty boring compared to our toe shifters.

Given what you said, even from throttle position I, the rider is not in complete control in AT. Think about it- how about I want the response of lower gears while keeping constant throttle? I often do so when planning for an overtake on my P180... I linger in 3rd gear searching for the right opportunity and then overtake. Wouldn't an AT shift me to 5th gear and delay my overtake?
I dont think all are designed to shift at relaxed RPM's and especially when they are bigger bikes you should have enough rev range left to cruise & overtake.and wont they downshift if there isnt enough power under hard acceleration?and usually these will come with a "power Mode" option too,which can be activated on the fly.while on power mode it pretty much red lines.

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antz.bin

About the bold bit, for a DCT, Yes, you will be delayed by about 1/100 of a second (or 0.01 seconds) because thats the amount of time the DCT will take to kickdown to the correct gear before it starts accelerating. But incidentally, it will take you similar amount of time to twist the throttle accordingly. This delay for a CVT is more (around 1/2 a second). But we aren't concerned about CVTs here.

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Old Fox

Going by the gist of the discussion here, there seem to be a few misconceptions about DCT and the auto-shift options on Honda bikes. I'll stick to the tech in usage terms and cite the example of the VFR1200 in this. I recently rode the bike in city, on the highway and in the mountains. After the initial odd couple of kilometers when I kept tapping my left foot and grabbing the absent clutch lever on the left clipon, in was a great experience. The initial oddness was the same I'd felt when I'd ridden the bike earlier just after its official launch here.

True, in the auto mode the bike up-shifts pretty quickly and you don't really get to enjoy the power of the 1200cc engine underneath. The auto-shift is for the open roads as they are in say the US or Europe. Not really tailored for the mess we call traffic on our roads. But switch to manual and the fun begins. And believe me, once you get the knack of it, things become even tastier than riding a bike with the traditional gearshift.

The DCT allows you to virtually power-shift through the box both up and down without the fear of maiming components inside, lets you hold a gear as long as you want to, lets you redline in every gear and downshifts to bottom gear when you let the speed drop to below 10 kph and have not downshifted yourself. The 'paddle-shift' does feel odd in the beginning quite like any new concept. But the ergonomics are not at all flawed and the two switches fall naturally under the thumb and forefinger. The only flaw I felt was the need to consciously lift the thumb to use the horn button.

The manual shift goes like this. Start the engine and switch to manual by depressing a switch on the RHS clip-on and seeing the 'M' displayed on the digital display. Now just roll the throttle and the bike takes off in 1st. Hold the throttle open and keep 'paddling' through the up-shift switch on under your left forefinger by tapping the switch and the bike rockets through the ton before you even realise it. The upshifts are smoother and faster than I can ever do manually and its an amazing feeling. Want to downshift - keep holding the throttle and thumb the down-shift button. the bike gets into a lower gear without any tyre slip or sudden jerk. Not exciting? Ride it yourself and I guarantee you'll come away grinning wide. Yes, there's no denying the traditional manual shift is fun or rather there's loads of satisfaction to be found when you 'make' a successful shift through the box because 'you' did it. But dismissing the DCT auto without tasting the tech is missing something big. I remember the need to double-declutch in cars before they came up with synchromesh gear boxes. Did that totally take away the charm of gear-shifts?

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Samarth 619

Thanks Sir Old Fox for such a detailed post explaining Automatic Transmission. I guess one has to try AT before concluding about it. Most Biking journalists have not favoured Automatic Transmission found in VFR1200 though.

I really don't see a problem with "manual thumb shifting" on an AT bike, its fine enough. Except that I'm not sure if its that "interesting" or "involving" enough...

Well, only a test ride can tell all this. As someone said, "Change is destined to be resisted, tolerated and finally, accepted."

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@ Ranjith: Yeah, Power Scooters can be more benefitted with this technology, because CVT is not really the mileage king. Also, the target group (elderly, ladies, etc.) can be greatly benefitted from it.