[xBhp Universal Thread]: TBC-thermal barrier coating

[vikaskurup]

well this might be a question or suggestion...why dont we do thermal barrier coating to the engines..basically thermal barrier coatings consist of four layers: the metal substrate, metallic bond coat, thermally grown oxide, and ceramic topcoat. The ceramic topcoat is typically composed of yttria-stabilized zirconia (YSZ) which is desirable for having very low conductivity while remaining stable at nominal operating temperatures typically seen in applications. Recent advancements in finding an alternative for YSZ ceramic topcoat identified many novel ceramics (rare earth zirconates) having superior performance at temperatures above 2200 °F, however with inferior fracture toughness compared to that of YSZ. This ceramic layer creates the largest thermal gradient of the TBC and keeps the lower layers at a lower temperature than the surface.

here is a link to more of tbc
Thermal barrier coating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

doing tbc we can cut down the friction between the metallic parts of bike thus reducing the energy to be wasted into heat energy and we get maximum output from the bike.well i know that we should have a really good crankshaft to take up the load.i inquired about tbc in india but its only done for some german machines which come here since its cheap,and its done in very rural industrial areas..abroad tbc is done to hotrods to get max output from the vehicle.
rather than engine mods which can screw up the reliability we can do something like this.even because there is almost 0% heat engery emitted between the parts the oil will remain the same and not become burned even when the vehicle has gone in 10000 x ...kms.we have used carbon fibre and nitrogen gas concept from the aviation industry but its weird to find out why people dont consider tbc in india..we can have both power as well as fuel efficiency with engine reliability plus we can have a liquid cooled engine ride on a air cooled engine...what do ull guys have to say...if u find anymore info plz reply.

[ken cool]

Universal Threads Discussion Approved

[Ricci]

It does sound like a new technology , maybe not caught on yet. But the aerospace refernce may indicate a different utility , it speaks of higher insulation of metal parts exposed to high temperature fluid . Hard contact created friction probably isn't tolerable by this coating , such as piston rings against the cylinder wall.

[vikaskurup]

hey ricci,but this things is used in hotrods and even motorcycles...even bmw is using this for their engines.here are some links for info

Engine Coatings - Thermal Effect On Engine Parts - Review - Hot Rod

http://www.racingpowerplant.com/bmw_s38_m88.htm
Motorcycle Coatings from Swain Tech for Automotive Coatings including engine piston coatings, ceramic coating services engine, automotive ceramic coating, ceramic header coating, dry film lubricant, race engine coatings, exhaust header coating

[Ricci]

Aha, that's good. I'll read up those links , thanks . Maybe it's cost and/or manufacturing complexity for use in mass production that's the hiccup, for non-premium products. The names ( BMW ) and applications ( hot rods = customs ) suggest that price is rather high.

[vikaskurup]

hey Ricci
yes the cost is high...i had called 2-3 places in patna...first they were refusing then one agreed but only for some engine parts they are charging 25000 which includes the block piston and few gears....and told that will take them around a month to do it just like u do hard chrome to chrome parts.the thickness of each part should be kept the same so it takes times.but i guess its worth it...didnt have the time to follow them up...this was 2-3 years back.

[Old Fox]

Originally Posted by vikaskurup

we have used carbon fibre and nitrogen gas concept from the aviation industry but its weird to find out why people dont consider tbc in india..we can have both power as well as fuel efficiency with engine reliability plus we can have a liquid cooled engine ride on a air cooled engine...what do ull guys have to say...if u find anymore info plz reply.

Originally Posted by vikaskurup

hey Ricci
yes the cost is high

^You have partly answered your question here itself. All products are a judicious (read profitable) mix of engineering and commerce. So that usually effectively rules out such specialist operations as a part of some manufacturer's production set up.

The TBC you've mentioned here has relevance. Sure. But there are issues why it is not seen around.

1. Our present day heat engines loose a pretty large part of the energy released by the fuel during combustion through heat transfer through engine parts. Thats both good and bad. Bad because we waste energy. Good because our present metallurgy will in any case not be able to handle all that heat lying around. Try draining the coolant and driving around

Thermal Barrier Coating of the piston crown, the combustion chamber and the valve faces retards rapid heat loss through them. But all that you gain here is a teeny weeny fractional gain in thermal efficiency as long as the pistion is close to TDC. Once it starts moving down, the uncoated cylinder walls get exposed and a strong temperature gradient exists bringing thermal gains to a naught quickly. And that tiny gain at appreciable expense, in our tiny engines that empower our Pulsars and ZMAs and R15s don't make the trouble worth while.

2. The metallurgical quality of our engine's componentry does not justify the use of TBC's. To put things into perspective in relation to engine loading, the R1 makes about 170 bhp/ltr while our P220 DTSi makes do with about 95 bhp/ltr. The alloy crystal lattice has to be a lot more homogeneous and display predictable behavior under high thermal and mechanical stresses to handle the kind of power generation expected of bikes like the R1. And assuring such quality comes at a cost. In this perspective, the Pulsar and the R1 have as much in common between them as the commonality between apples and oranges - neither tastes like a banana. You quoted aviation as an industry that uses cutting edge technology. I'll give an example from there itself. All turbine blades are machined from a single crystal thats grown under controlled conditions. A very expensive thing to do but then you can't fix a stalled aircraft engine by the 'cloud-side' can you?. Even the R1 comes nowhere to the criticality here in terms of reliability and efficiency.

It took about 2 decades for PTFE to percolate down to our humble non-stick cookware from the outside of the re-entry space vehicles where it formed the ablative layer. Ceramic coatings and their allied developments still struggle with suspect mechanical properties even though their thermal properties are exemplary. So handling ceramics, even as a metal suspension or as a part of metal lattice, is an engineering challenge for it to be done on a routine basis. We shall have to do with the usual carbon steel, duralmin, inconel and cast iron for quite sometime to come.

OF

[vikaskurup]

hey oldfox
thanks for the info...doing some more study on it...lets see what i come across.

[Ricci]

Originally Posted by Old Fox

1. Our present day heat engines loose a pretty large part of the energy released by the fuel during combustion through heat transfer through engine parts. Thats both good and bad. Bad because we waste energy. Good because our present metallurgy will in any case not be able to handle all that heat lying around.

The supposed idea of these coatings is not to let the heat transfer to the metal components , retaining the heat in the gases and hence higher pressure. But as you noted below .....

Originally Posted by Old Fox

Thermal Barrier Coating of the piston crown, the combustion chamber and the valve faces retards rapid heat loss through them. But all that you gain here is a teeny weeny fractional gain in thermal efficiency as long as the pistion is close to TDC. Once it starts moving down, the uncoated cylinder walls get exposed and a strong temperature gradient exists bringing thermal gains to a naught quickly. And that tiny gain at appreciable expense, in our tiny engines that empower our Pulsars and ZMAs and R15s don't make the trouble worth while.

Which I mentioned about the coatings sustaining friction from piston motion, I assumed the entire cylinder would be coated not having read the article before that . If the coating isn't on all surfaces exposed to combustion gases , it will lead to heat loss, and possible higher localized temperature hotspots . That could be worse .

Originally Posted by Old Fox

It took about 2 decades for PTFE to percolate down to our humble non-stick cookware from the outside of the re-entry space vehicles where it formed the ablative layer. Ceramic coatings and their allied developments still struggle with suspect mechanical properties even though their thermal properties are exemplary. So handling ceramics, even as a metal suspension or as a part of metal lattice, is an engineering challenge for it to be done on a routine basis. We shall have to do with the usual carbon steel, duralmin, inconel and cast iron for quite sometime to come.
OF

It's been 20+ years since the first TBC coatings were used , as per one of the linked articles.

Yes, that's why turbine blades application may be fine, but not inside an ICE. But there are carbon-ceramic brake discs, friction-intensive application though quite differing in requirement - a disc needs high friction , the piston rings are better off with lower friction.

[vikaskurup]

hey but what about the gears and the bearings