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Indexing a plug will effectively position the ground electrode in a way , to spread the spark kernel ....but the ground electrode is still in the way ,and the flame kernel spreads first horizontally then into the chamber. Side gapping and surface gap plugs actually present the flame kernel into the chamber , and the flame spread is faster and complete.Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View PostSo what you are saying is ,it has a similar affect as indexing the plug?
Performance Unlimited 4-Wheel & Off Road Center - Hartford, Wisconsin - USA Technical Documents please read this to get details. Regarding your other query of which spark plug for the 195 cc bike , it is best to stick to stock spec. first find out the heat range originally recommended and pick a equivalent surface gap one from NGKs site.
The pic i had uploaded is of NGK BP 6 ET(3 electrode) and Bosch(4 Electrode).Both are non resistor type.These are for cars.Denso ,Lucas England,are some of the other manufacturers of similar plugs.You must match the original plugs dimension and HEAT RANGE....
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If you have any old CR7E or CR8E plugs lying around..then side gap them and see the results.Last edited by psr; 08-25-2010, 06:55 PM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Since you had increased the compression ratio the stock plug itself is running hot now.CR8E is the way to go.Higher compression and higher RPM will tend to blow the spark away much like our blowing of candle. Try non resistor type and please check whether your HT coil to Plug cap connecting cable shows resistance.If so then try non resistor type.At High RPM the spark event is taking place at a significantly higher speeds and any resistance in serious with the HT will bring down performance. Hope this helps.Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View PostThey both are cpr type ,that is center electrode is protruding ,so obviously they are hotter and will self clean up properly.But what i am interested is in how the hesitation was taken care of? any ideas? because my bike is experiencing some jerking at higher revvs .I changed the adapter and it took care of it .But it keeps coming and going .Kindly give the number of the NGK plug shown in the pic.Is it a CR type? and which model is it used for?
I have tried the twin electrode of the rtr ,the bosch one and found it very hot for my bike and reverted back to NGK R CR7E IX.My bike is a 195cc fiero.I have tried NGK R CR8E AND NGK R CR9E too but found that the engine performs better with the stock plug that is NGK R CR7E and the iridium equivalent IX .
ps: engine is a high compression one now.
Last edited by psr; 08-25-2010, 08:46 PM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Gixxer you said that the RTR plug was hot..what exactly did you mean..was it leading to "pinking" or crack in the center electrode? how did you increase the compression ratio? Have you increased the AF ratio for performance...What is the colour of the CR7E, CR8E, and the RTR plug ? Light to medium tan is ok.White or dark indicates Extremes of temperature.
When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Firstly thanks for the replies.Coming to the rtr plug which is bosch twin electrode one and i bought it because as you know heat range isn't a standard among plug makers .So i thought since the bike shared the same engine as the apache150 i can give it a try.But what i noticed after using it for a few days, was that the engine had an improvement in the initial pick-up, but would heat up real quick that too when ridden in mid-range speeds like within 50kmph.That is ,you can make out right? if you know your bike? that some difference is there.What i was noticing was that the engine noise would go up dramatically ,like the engine would become harsh after just a couple of kms and the heat could be felt clearly.My bike was stock then,that is it was 150 cc and had the stock main jet of 97.5 were as the Apache 150 had 102 main jet.Then whenever i took out the plug to check it ,the plug would be white and clean ,so obviously it was a hotter plug than the NGK R CR7E .Since the heat range numbers aren't standardized between makers, what i did before using the plug was to check the length of the center electrode as bosch ones are protruding types were as the NGK R CR7E is a flush one .As you know in lower to mid range operation ideally the plug should be dark as it means the engine is not running lean and will perform better in higher revvs.So i immediately put back the stock plug and engine was running smoothly and without heating up.Originally posted by psr View PostGixxer you said that the RTR plug was hot..what exactly did you mean..was it leading to "pinking" or crack in the center electrode? how did you increase the compression ratio? Have you increased the AF ratio for performance...What is the colour of the CR7E, CR8E, and the RTR plug ? Light to medium tan is ok.White or dark indicates Extremes of temperature.
Now the bike is a 195 cc one with a piston top design to increase the compression and the head has been ported too.I have done jetting ,that is the main jet has been increased from the stock 97.5 to 115 . When i was using the coldest plug available for indian made bikes the NGK R CR9E , i took the bike out to the highway and took it to higher revvs and checked the plug to find that the plug was off-white in color were as in city use it'd be choc brown in color.
Coming to the jerking at higher revvs part.The bike gave sharp jerks at around 95 kmph and this jerking can be felt in all the plugs and in every gear.So when the adapter of the plug was changed it became normal with increased acceleration .But the curious thing is this problem keeps coming and going ,like when the bike is started it might be there and after some time it goes .I am suspecting that there might be some shorting somewhere .
I will be buying a 29mm carb next week and i hope to sort this issue out when the carb is installed.Any ideas? i am now rather sure its electrical in nature.I had been facing it since over a few months now and had suspected it be a jetting issue ,but the plug adapter replacement has proved otherwise.
Yes i will read up the link provided by you and i do have a couple of NGK R CR7E plugs here and i will try out the side gapping with them.
After the engine modification ,i had gone to the NGK's american site to look up the help pages on selecting plugs and reading them(not as a pro with reading kit
) thats why i had chosen the colder plugs CR8E and CR9E.But the engine is very refined and smooth when the stock plug is used and its even better when the stock iridium plug is used.The plug is dark in color when in city use.
I clearly remember the dealer saying that the plug adapter has a resistor .Like you mentioned , i am also suspecting that the cable from the HT coil to the adapter has some fault.Life begins, once you hit the power band !!
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@psr
Another thing ,i don't know whether its possible to side-gap a flush center electrode plug?, or would it help?
I have another plug of the honda unicorn NGK R CPR8EA as i am sure you know the letter 'P' in CPR stands for protruding center electrode,were as CR types have center electrode which sits flush with the plug.
The thing is i am reluctant to use the protruding plugs ,as due to higher compression and pilot jet being lean the carb gets blown off while starting the bike.I mean the carb gets literally blown off the intake manifold with a loud bang!The protruding plugs being hotter can increase this prob further as the carb gets blown off even with the coldest NGK R CR9E plug.
The carb blow out issue has been sorted out by a simple method of keeping the throttle open slightly even as the bike is kick started.Life begins, once you hit the power band !!
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hmm interesting, dont wish to refute anyones claims here but i'll just speak from my experience. Never had to run a colder plug or side gap or do anything to the plug to fix something or improve performance on any my of my bikes (though i probably would have had a safer setup with a colder plug on my rd350 drag bike setup, that was extreme). I dont know how you can feel the performance gain from side gapping a plug but like i said, i wont refute it, i'm sure it does good. In the old days with 2 strokes plug fouling was common, now with the new 4 strokes that doesnt even happen. My experience says theres way more 'fruitful' ways of improving performance. The hesitation mentioned above shouldnt even be there if the bike is jetted right. I'd tend to agree with gixxer_junkies suspicion, sounds like something wrong in the electrics there (not the plugs). I also dont think the jerking issue has anything to do with the modded setup or compression (unless theres something wrong with ported head). You're not running some super turbo charged nitrous engine to have your spark blown out. I've run in excess of 200psi reliably on my apache on stock plugs and with some pretty extreme riding. Jetted correctly there should be no overheating either. my 2 centsLast edited by Killer; 08-26-2010, 09:47 PM.
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Side gapping is done as a DIY on conventional plug irrespective of its centre electrode height,and surface gapped plug is a Manufactured improvement on this. As you said the protruding plug does increase the compression .When you finish reading the subject in the link you will understand the mod better. It is suggested as an alternate way of improving spark kernel propagation . The carb back firing indicates very lean AF ratio, or problem connected with ignition circuit. You will have to up size the idle jet also ,since it is the starting jet ,and continues to feed the AF ratio at higher RPM also. Please stick with colder plug ,as it will avoid detonation .Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View Post@psr
Another thing ,i don't know whether its possible to side-gap a flush center electrode plug?, or would it help?
I have another plug of the honda unicorn NGK R CPR8EA as i am sure you know the letter 'P' in CPR stands for protruding center electrode,were as CR types have center electrode which sits flush with the plug.
The thing is i am reluctant to use the protruding plugs ,as due to higher compression and pilot jet being lean the carb gets blown off while starting the bike.I mean the carb gets literally blown off the intake manifold with a loud bang!The protruding plugs being hotter can increase this prob further as the carb gets blown off even with the coldest NGK R CR9E plug.
The carb blow out issue has been sorted out by a simple method of keeping the throttle open slightly even as the bike is kick started.
Last edited by psr; 08-27-2010, 01:03 AM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Thanks for your observation..the side gap mod had been suggested for improving the flame kernel spread ..and not as a solution to Gixxer's problem....or as a master fix to anybody's either.Any change from stock setup will change the operating parameters of the engine, and corresponding changes must be made to make the engine perform reliably. If different engines don't have different temperatures , then different temperature plugs suitable for them need not be made. Higher compression increases the engines operating temperature,and a colder than standard plug is recommended for safe,and reliable operation. When my Lancer gave me 0.5Km to 1 Km per litre more with a NGK BP6ET CONSISTENTLY I presumed it is an improvement and wanted to share it..I want to use every drop of fossil fuel efficiently .Originally posted by Killer View Posthmm interesting, dont wish to refute anyones claims here but i'll just speak from my experience. Never had to run a colder plug or side gap or do anything to the plug to fix something or improve performance on any my of my bikes (though i probably would have had a safer setup with a colder plug on my rd350 drag bike setup, that was extreme). I dont know how you can feel the performance gain from side gapping a plug but like i said, i wont refute it, i'm sure it does good. In the old days with 2 strokes plug fouling was common, now with the new 4 strokes that doesnt even happen. My experience says theres way more 'fruitful' ways of improving performance. The hesitation mentioned above shouldnt even be there if the bike is jetted right. I'd tend to agree with gixxer_junkies suspicion, sounds like something wrong in the electrics there (not the plugs). I also dont think the jerking issue has anything to do with the modded setup or compression (unless theres something wrong with ported head). You're not running some super turbo charged nitrous engine to have your spark blown out. I've run in excess of 200psi reliably on my apache on stock plugs and with some pretty extreme riding. Jetted correctly there should be no overheating either. my 2 cents
Since you are running a Apache RTR which is supposed to have this surface gap plug you can give a better feedback on its performance in stock and after mods .Judging by your claim that you are running stock plugs even after mods in your RTR running it in excess of 200psi and extreme riding, I think these side gap plugs are also having wider Temperature range..Last edited by psr; 08-27-2010, 01:35 AM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Someone let me know the model number for a Gpower spark plug for my fz-s and how much would it cost ! I don't wanna get a royal topi by those street vendors in Bangalore who sell this stuff for bikes or let me know a good place where I can buy it for a nice prcie in Bangalore !Presently own :
RE Classic 500
Yamaha RD 350
Yamaha FZ-s
Vespa 150
RE Ensign
AJS 350
Honda Activa x2
Kinetic Honda
Hercules Roadeo a200
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Go to the distributors itself.They are amit auto agency ,tank bund road (JC ROAD)Journalist colony bangalore.The link below gives you the options for your bike.Originally posted by Zamaan View PostSomeone let me know the model number for a Gpower spark plug for my fz-s and how much would it cost ! I don't wanna get a royal topi by those street vendors in Bangalore who sell this stuff for bikes or let me know a good place where I can buy it for a nice prcie in Bangalore !
NGK Partfinder for Two WheelersLife begins, once you hit the power band !!
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Hi gixxer did you get a solution to your problems...was any of my observation of use to you ?Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View PostGo to the distributors itself.They are amit auto agency ,tank bund road (JC ROAD)Journalist colony bangalore.The link below gives you the options for your bike.
NGK Partfinder for Two Wheelers
Killer had mentioned that he is using the stock Bosch twin ground electrode in his RTR without any problem...even after enhancing its compression and running it at racing RPM.I guess it must be suitable for your application.Last edited by psr; 09-08-2010, 07:27 PM.When Was The Last Time,You Did Something For The First Time.
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Yeah ,sorry for the delay in posting .The thing is i've searched in JC road , at ZEN TVS and a dealership too .It seems like the plug is in short supply.The whole market is flooded by NGKOriginally posted by psr View PostHi gixxer did you get a solution to your problems...was any of my observation of use to you ?
Killer had mentioned that he is using the stock Bosch twin ground electrode in his RTR without any problem...even after enhancing its compression and running it at racing RPM.I guess it must be suitable for your application.
and even the TVS distributor Sri Ganesh is pushing NGK.I had bought the previous side gapped twin electrode from him the last time i mentioned about .But now he's saying its not in supply and i gave away the plug to a friend of mine to use in his apache a year or so ago.
I have placed a order for the bosch twin electrode one along with a 32mm carb and both should arrive in the coming week at the most.So lets see.I have a few things planned once the carb arrives ,i'll be putting a wider dia bend-pipe and get the baffle removed .So the jetting has to be re-done with the new carb and set-up.Then the plug should work well .
AnandLast edited by gixxer_junkie_m; 09-09-2010, 05:24 PM.Life begins, once you hit the power band !!
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sorry for the ot but , which bike are you planning to use this carb into???Originally posted by gixxer_junkie_m View PostYeah ,sorry for the delay in posting .The thing is i've searched in JC road , at ZEN TVS and a dealership too .It seems like the plug is in short supply.The whole market is flooded by NGK
and even the TVS distributor Sri Ganesh is pushing NGK.I had bought the previous side gapped twin electrode from him the last time i mentioned about .But now he's saying its not in supply and i gave away the plug to a friend of mine to use in his apache a year or so ago.
I have placed a order for the bosch twin electrode one along with a 32mm carb and both should arrive in the coming week at the most.So lets see.I have a few things planned once the carb arrives ,i'll be putting a wider dia bend-pipe and get the baffle removed .So the jetting has to be re-done with the new carb and set-up.Then the plug should work well .
Anand
is it the pulser 220 carbed version?? if yes then why getting the carb relaced
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It's a modified 195cc SUZUKI Fiero.Originally posted by ROCKRZ View Postsorry for the ot but , which bike are you planning to use this carb into???
is it the pulser 220 carbed version?? if yes then why getting the carb relaced
I know 29mm carb should do the job well and it might be better suited than the 32mm carb for city conditions.But i do have other modifications in mind for the future ,hence i went for the 32mm carb.
Life begins, once you hit the power band !!
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