General Biking Discussion Approved.

@harikesh - you are intent on slammin the ninja.. first it was cost of ownership of ninja and now the fuel injection.

Wont it be advisable to ask for fuel injection issues on existing bikes that have em?

- P220
-HH glamour
-Yamaha R15

-The ninja comes with a carburettor only in the american model. The indonesian model and european model comes with FI for better emission control. But it also gives 2 PS or so power more.

-If a Fuel injection system fails, it always has a "limp Back" mode, which will allow you to ride the vehicle to a safe location, where it can be attended to.

-The same is the case with cars. How many times have you heard injection system failing on em? not too many. right?

- FI improves throttle response, allows for more precise metering, real time ratio corrections and injection control, resulting in more power, better control, more mileage and lesser pollution.

I have done more than half a lac kilometres in fuel injected motorcycles and over a lac in fuel injected cars. At least the injection has not given me any problems. Whereas I have had plenty of problems with carbs. And there was not much that a roadside mech could do about it! I have faced more problems with carbs throughout my life. And I am really glad that FI is finally here. Typical example is stated in my thread about the TTR vs 220 vs Zma ride. It is here: http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/tourer/9...-holidays.html

Roadside mechs cannot fiddle with FI and such tech. But then such bikes with this kind of tech do not suddenly go bad all of a sudden. They are supposed to last and they do.

@jd666: I suggest you refrain from reading between the lines and putting words where they are none. @Hari has just sited an example and he doesn't perforce have to 'avoid' citing the Ninja as one and there is no need to get offended if he has done so.

Technology per se is not always good or bad. And FI is not the holy grail as it is portrayed to be. Both methods of providing the engine with the right mix of fuel and air have their relative merits and demerits and this thread is an opportunity to discuss these in a dispassionate but intelligent manner

Comparing the FI systems of cars with those used in bikes is like comparing apples and oranges just because they both are fruits and both are round. The design brief for an FI system to be used in a car is way different from that for a motorcycle, and a small engine capacity motorcycle at that. Usual car engines do not redline at 13k rpm, they don't produce specific power outputs in the range of 120-130bhp/ltr, there are no extreme weight and space constraints when it comes to designing components for a car as they are for a motorcycle. Even the cost-constraints are tighter for a system destined for motorcycles. All these factors put motorcycle FI systems in a different bracket altogether. Smaller sized components optimized for weight, space and working in an environment that sees more thermal variation than any, more vibration than in any car and being partly or fully exposed to the weather, means more stresses and a consequently greater chance of malfunction. Add to this our country's famous 'fuel' quality (Injectors with their tiny laser-drilled holes are more prone to be adversely affected by fuel impurities than the jets in a carb) and the potential for trouble increases. That mostly it has not happened says a lot about the sound designing and thorough testing of the systems before they are put into production.

One reason for a 'lack of problems' with FI systems, as Ken says, is that they cannot be tinkered with. Carburettors are sensitive to tuning i.e. to the skills of the person who sets them up. Not so with the FI systems. So if they are set-up within their acceptable range at inception, only a genuine malfunction will make them go kaput. No fiddling half-brain mechanic can induce a fault. Only that this non-tinkerability also has a down-side where 1. a knowledgeable person cannot optimize his engine the way he knows he can while it can be done with a carburetted engine and 2. a knock-out malfunction leaves little option but to get the bike carried to a properly equipped workshop (which would be few and far between in our country).

FI systems for cars have been around for quite along time now and their evolution both in terms of performance and reliability would be apparent to users who have driven both the earlier and later versions of such cars (the 999cc Santro/Atos with its 16bit processor and the recent Santro Xing/Atos Prime with its 32bit Processor) and experienced the pronounced throttle lag in the former that has all but been eliminated in the latter. I have put in the processor bit here because you cannot really examine an FI system without looking at the entire Engine Management technology aspect.

Motorcycle FI systems for small capacity engines are still relatively young on the evolution scale. True that technology inputs from parallel systems for cars have been helpful in hastening this evolution but there still is a long way to go. This progress is not as quick as it can be primarily because these systems have to be as efficient and reliable as those for cars and yet be available at a far lower cost. And an FI system is not just about pumping fuel through a spray nozzle at timed intervals. The entire hardware chain has to be as good and reliable as the whole system. Leaking joints, unreliable pumps, finicky batteries, bad fuel etc etc all need to be addressed before the entire system attains the scale and volume of reliability that universal use demands. The future of course lies with FI but at the moment, the carbs do have a slight upper hand.

PS: The 'limp-home mode' is usually about over-enriching the mixture so that the possible failure of say the 'air-flow sensor' doesn't make the mixture dangerously lean and thereby damaging the engine. The engine develops barely half the power, cuts out above a certain RPM and guzzles fuel like a drunk with his tail on fire. Just imagine this in a given scenario for our bikes: You are descending Tanglang La and the bike goes into 'limp-home' mode. By the time you get to Mandi or Chandigarh or Delhi where you can get it fixed, you'll really be aware of what 'limping' is all about.

Well explained Old Fox!

@jd666: I suggest you be less impulsive next time!

@ken: Correct me if I am wrong. Didnt you face a hard time your R1's fuel injectors early this year when your battery failed because of many retries on trying to start it with clogged fuel injectors? (in Noida).

i know.. but taking the ninja as an example was outta place.. look at the other bikes in the scenario first... peace..

you have scared the hell out of me. is there any way to get the bike going in case the fuel injection conks out. the post was because i can patch any carb and tune it back for an emergency but the question is about FI what can be done if your FI is dead. indian fuel is very famous to kill engines.

I think people have a bad taste in their mouths because of the way Fi was implemented in both the P220 and the RTR-Fi. It was supposed to be reliable from the get go, but both TVS and Bajaj dropped the ball on that one .

My intention was not to scare...just share.

Unfortunately no, there is no emergency 'bypass' that can be done if an FI system conks out. Though one can take heart from the fact that a total failure would be a rarity. You would sputter and squeak long enough to reach habitation in most cases. Equate the FI system with the ignition coil in your bike, carbed or otherwise. The coil fails, the bike shuts down...period. The difference is that a coil has been around long enough to be finally almost 100% reliable. And also its a simple component by itself which also reduces chances of failure. Moreover, it is something that you can probably find even in small towns. And coils are inter-changeable between bikes in an emergency. Fixing the FI needs some infrastructure which will not build up till sufficient numbers are sold. So as long as you confine your biking to urban centres, a failure would not be all that serious. Become adventurous, head out to sparsely populated places and a failure there could spell trouble.

In fact, I hold a similar view of this recent practice of dispensing with the kick-starter in bikes. Its a necessary back-up. A bike's battery is not always that capable and reliable, esp in extreme temperatures. Imagine starting a bike after staying overnight at Sarchu where temp might hit a low of -5 degC September onwards. Batteries become dicey at such low temperatures. And push starting a 150 kg bike at 14,000ft above sea level will be an everlasting memory,trust me.

^true. Making a system thats highly stressed and yet 100% reliable (its a critical component and so demands the 100% standard) within the cost constraints is where the problem lies. Eventually it will happen. But as of now, a carburetted bike is more predictably reliable.

in that way Hero Honda is better off because they have their parent Honda to borrow from. Just plonk the PGM-Fi unit in, which is tried and trusted, and you're ready to go. Indeed i think its only in india the Karizma's engine is FI'ed..everywhere else in the world its still carbed, but with a 6 speed gearbox. Yamaha the same case...they've been doing Fi since like what, almost 10-12 years now. Same goes for all the other Japanese and other foreign makes. Bajaj should have borrowed the tech from Kawasaki and had it modified suitably for the Pulsar; TVS could have gone back to Suzuki's expertise or some other manufacturer. Trying to use an aftermarket unit (Delphi) just doesnt cut it.

even the big jap companies had problems in introducing FI in their initial superbikes. the power delivery was jerky and instant and not smooth like a carb. which led to many scary mid corner moments. i remember reading that even they had to do a lot of work to get it ironed out.

for non techie persons FI is a boon...
there are different ways to tune the carb of a 2 stroke & a 4 stroke...

I love FI for being hassle free and a saving for morons like me...

okay thanks .. will have to live with FI the way it is and hope for the best. there is a possibility that carbs made for bikes in india is of lesser performance when compared to similar ones abroad and hence FI is a safe bet here in india as it is better than than the inferior indian carbs. there is also a possibility than on a one to one run the carb ninja may out perform the FI Indian one even though the FI specs appears better on paper.

Very well put down. It's an experience itself, to be at Sarchu, and try conking your engine early morning.! But yes, in this case FI bikes scores over Carbs.

I would also like add, the fact - Do we really need FI in our bikes?

Case in debates is of course 220FI to 220 Carb. If a carb can provide, better power, more mileage and same emission level, how does a FI help the end consumer.

And most important failure aspect of an FI system, may not be FI itslef or even the ECU. A total battery failure can be disastrous for an FI vehicle, and no you can't push start it either.

In comparison to cars, the electrical system is much more protected from heat, jerks, water and dust, something unavoidable on bikes.

Honda's PGM-FI could be said more mature but not 100% fail proof. It's important to note, the FI system on Indian bikes like Bajaj are not from Bajaj but from Delphi, and problems attributed to FI on 220 thus stand true for any other big brand FI systems.