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  • #16
    Originally posted by insanebiker View Post
    Yes, a softer setup will have slightly less effective braking as compared to a stiffer suspension setup. But am not able to think why though
    Forks/Springs being softer mean that the they 'suppress/depress' more. If a bike with such a setup hits corners you will get less 'feedback'. Feedback in the sense the feel of the front and back end on the bike sticking on the road because you will be bouncing around all the time. This will mean lesser control over the corners.

    A stiffer spring setup will give you more feedback. Which in turn, will give you a better response during the turns. There are more aspects than just springs which effect bike's handling, but if you take just the springs, then this is basicallty what it is.

    Simple eg:-
    Take a straw and try to draw a circle in sand. Take a wooden stick and do the same. Which one will draw a better circle?

    In terms of road comfort, you would ideally want softer forks/springs (opp of what you would want above). A softer fork/spring would depress easier so in case of a bump or a pothole, you would get less 'feedback' from the road, making you not groan everytime you go over uneven surfaces. A stiffer fork/spring would depress lesser so the vice-versa would happen.

    Simple eg:-
    Take the same straw and press it over the surface ground and keep going for a hundred meters or so. Take the wooden stick and do the same. After which one would you feel a bit weary on your wrists?

    Bikes would like to have an ideal compromise between these two. There are mechanisms which bridge the gap between these two as well nowadays. (The R15 has a varying dampening system, with the monoshock stiffening with increase in load)
    Last edited by pranay; 06-25-2009, 03:50 PM.
    DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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    • #17
      Originally posted by beruoist View Post
      Very useful thread.

      But i think..Instead of proving anyone wrong,everyone should try to correct the gyaan,provide some inputs for the stuff which somebody has wrongly interpreted in here.

      So the best thing will be to provide the correct information about the basic terms of the bikes,with little bit debate..and a detailed conclusion in the end.

      I have one question.

      How does an Exhaust adds in the performance.with the various varaints in the Exhaust technology,Exhaust size etc.How does it works.
      Also is it like a type of exhaust should belong to a type of bike(superbike,dirt bike..this classification)

      Guys please provide your inputs,your expirience.I have already googled all this stuff.
      Peace
      Beruoist

      Any useful answers on my question ??
      MyTravelTales-India
      Australia||Thailand||Nepal||Singapore||Finland||Estonia||Norway||Latvia||Lithuania||Poland

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      • #18
        Originally posted by pranay View Post
        Forks/Springs being softer mean that the they 'suppress/depress' more. If a bike with such a setup hits corners you will get less 'feedback'. Feedback in the sense the feel of the front and back end on the bike sticking on the road because you will be bouncing around all the time. This will mean lesser control over the corners.

        A stiffer spring setup will give you more feedback. Which in turn, will give you a better response during the turns. There are more aspects than just springs which effect bike's handling, but if you take just the springs, then this is basicallty what it is.

        Simple eg:-
        Take a straw and try to draw a circle in sand. Take a wooden stick and do the same. Which one will draw a better circle?

        In terms of road comfort, you would ideally want softer forks/springs (opp of what you would want above). A softer fork/spring would depress easier so in case of a bump or a pothole, you would get less 'feedback' from the road, making you not groan everytime you go over uneven surfaces. A stiffer fork/spring would depress lesser so the vice-versa would happen.

        Simple eg:-
        Take the same straw and press it over the surface ground and keep going for a hundred meters or so. Take the wooden stick and do the same. After which one would you feel a bit weary on your wrists?

        Bikes would like to have an ideal compromise between these two. There are mechanisms which bridge the gap between these two as well nowadays. (The R15 has a varying dampening system, with the monoshock stiffening with increase in load)
        Thanks for the explanation , Pranay!
        When everything comes ur way, u r in the wrong way ;)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by pranay View Post
          Forks/Springs being softer mean that the they 'suppress/depress' more. If a bike with such a setup hits corners you will get less 'feedback'. Feedback in the sense the feel of the front and back end on the bike sticking on the road because you will be bouncing around all the time. This will mean lesser control over the corners.

          A stiffer spring setup will give you more feedback. Which in turn, will give you a better response during the turns. There are more aspects than just springs which effect bike's handling, but if you take just the springs, then this is basicallty what it is.

          Simple eg:-
          Take a straw and try to draw a circle in sand. Take a wooden stick and do the same. Which one will draw a better circle?

          In terms of road comfort, you would ideally want softer forks/springs (opp of what you would want above). A softer fork/spring would depress easier so in case of a bump or a pothole, you would get less 'feedback' from the road, making you not groan everytime you go over uneven surfaces. A stiffer fork/spring would depress lesser so the vice-versa would happen.

          Simple eg:-
          Take the same straw and press it over the surface ground and keep going for a hundred meters or so. Take the wooden stick and do the same. After which one would you feel a bit weary on your wrists?

          Bikes would like to have an ideal compromise between these two. There are mechanisms which bridge the gap between these two as well nowadays. (The R15 has a varying dampening system, with the monoshock stiffening with increase in load)
          Pranay: 'Softer' or 'stiffer' suspension and its effects on braking and road-holding are two different things. I'll just be skimming on the surface of the topic here.

          Braking: Softer springing allows the weight transfer induced on braking to load up the front trye quicker than the tyre can adjust. And this weight transfer also compresses the springs more, taking up suspension travel, altering bike steering geometry towards instability and pulling the rider further and deeper into a 'dive'. All these effects hinder the rider from utilizing the full braking potential of the braking system/tyre combo. So for braking, a stiffer spring set-up is preferable.

          Road-holding: This is about how well the suspension keeps the tyre contact patch in contact with the road. Stiffer springs ALLIED with firm damping will keep the wheel pressed harder to the tarmac allowing for a sure-footed ride. 'Feedback' will be there in both the cases but what comes as feedback with softer springs will be sort of vague and will have a pretty high pucker factor for the rider. The bike will feel like its wallowing all over the turn.

          The 'straw and stick' analogy was a bit extreme there. I guess the straw is for softer springing but it gives the impression that softer springing also means flexible non-rigid forks that bend at their knees (wherever they are for 'forks) when the rider brakes.

          Yes, suspension set-ups are a use-oriented compromise. A commuter or tourer would want a fair percentage of comfort even if there is a slight depletion in road-holding and braking at the extreme limits of the bike's performance. Likewise, a road-racer would want his suspension set-up optimized for road holding and braking, comfort be damned.

          The 'varying' damping is what we call 'pre-load' adjustment for suspension. The suspension 'spring' is pre-loaded as if there is already some force pushing it downwards. This makes the spring effectively stiffer. For 'gas-springing' or nitrogen filled shocks, the pre-load is increased by increasing the gas-pressure inside the shocker-damper unit.
          Last edited by Old Fox; 06-25-2009, 04:40 PM.
          I don't let my motorcycles interfere with my motorcycling...

          Join xBhp On

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          • #20
            @ Old Fox,: Couldn't have said it better than you. I was expecting to hear from you here.
            Its not about the BHP or the CC, its about one common religion called Biking!!!

            Save the Tigers! Only 1411 (excluding ME) are left!




            This is my entry in the blogging world!!

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            • #21
              @ Old FOx - why doesnt a softer front fork provide better braking ? with a softer fork wont the front tyre will be able to get transfer of weight quicker so wee can in turn brake harder as weight gets transferred quicker ?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Puneet1 View Post
                @ Old FOx - why doesnt a softer front fork provide better braking ? with a softer fork wont the front tyre will be able to get transfer of weight quicker so wee can in turn brake harder as weight gets transferred quicker ?
                Like I wrote in my post:
                Softer springing allows the weight transfer induced on braking to load up the front trye quicker than the tyre can adjust. And this weight transfer also compresses the springs more, taking up suspension travel, altering bike steering geometry towards instability and pulling the rider further and deeper into a 'dive'. All these effects hinder the rider from utilizing the full braking potential of the braking system/tyre combo.

                Forward weight transfer makes the tyre contact patch grip the road better, this in turn allows more weight transfer which in turn further increases the grip allowing harder braking. This goes on till the loads exceed the frictional forces countering them, the contact patch breaks loose and the tyre skids.

                Now to your question: softer springs dive quicker under braking, reaching the limits of suspension travel and so by the time the weight transfer gets to the contact patch (there is a finite time element involved here), there is no suspension travel left. With no buffer (of suspension travel) to grade further weight transfer to the tyre, the tyre gets loaded suddenly and breaks loose. Stiffer springs dive little before stiffening up enough to send the remaining forces to the tyre which loads up as braking continues. Stiffer springs in short give the tyre MORE time to adjust to the weight transfer induced loads.
                I don't let my motorcycles interfere with my motorcycling...

                Join xBhp On

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                • #23
                  @Old Fox---- nice explaination........ thanx......

                  Originally posted by ken cool View Post
                  Topic Approved
                  @Ken----- congracts on your first approval ......
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                  There is only one rule in Biking

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by beruoist View Post
                    Any useful answers on my question ??
                    STILL UNANSWERED

                    How does an Exhaust adds in the performance.with the various varaints in the Exhaust technology,Exhaust size etc.How does it works.
                    Also is it like a type of exhaust should belong to a type of bike(superbike,dirt bike..this classification)
                    MyTravelTales-India
                    Australia||Thailand||Nepal||Singapore||Finland||Estonia||Norway||Latvia||Lithuania||Poland

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by beruoist View Post
                      STILL UNANSWERED

                      How does an Exhaust adds in the performance.with the various varaints in the Exhaust technology,Exhaust size etc.How does it works.
                      Also is it like a type of exhaust should belong to a type of bike(superbike,dirt bike..this classification)
                      The question remains unanswered because it would need at least 2 full days and some 10000 words to give a satisfactory reply to so sweeping a question.

                      The exhaust is as much a contributor to power and performance as are the carburetor, the ignition system, the gear box etc etc.

                      So please whittle down your query to manageable portions and put them up one at a time. Otherwise even re-posting your question in bold and in red will not make a difference.

                      And yes, if you could not understand anything even after exploring a sizeable number of web-sites suggested by google, then I don't think anyone on this forum can respond to your expected standard.
                      I don't let my motorcycles interfere with my motorcycling...

                      Join xBhp On

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                      • #26
                        This is an Interesting thread, should help me & others to understand lot of technical aspects of biking, provided people give the right information
                        Racing Throttle Response

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                        • #27
                          techno: trust Old Fox for that, he prefers to stay mum then to speak something thats not true. and his knowledge about engines and machines is amazing. also, we have a whole lot of people who know something or the othe. lets make it a good learning session now.
                          Its not about the BHP or the CC, its about one common religion called Biking!!!

                          Save the Tigers! Only 1411 (excluding ME) are left!




                          This is my entry in the blogging world!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Thank you old_fox!
                            This is exactly the kind of info that i wanted

                            Thanks everyone... I would love to know more such stuff.. will post more questions as i think of them...



                            My website: www.samudraNB.com

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Old Fox View Post
                              Pranay: 'Softer' or 'stiffer' suspension and its effects on braking and road-holding are two different things. I'll just be skimming on the surface of the topic here....

                              .
                              Ahh... I was hoping you would enlighten the thread. Any amount of thanking is not enough for the valuable info you provide.

                              The straw and stick was supposed to be a very generalistic example. Apologies!

                              @beruoist: This question would be better answered by Joel than most of us. I hope he watches this thread.
                              DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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                              • #30
                                Thanks Pads, dcs, pranay, samudranb.
                                Pranay: lets use the straws for some nice n cool Devil's Own for now.
                                Techno: good to see you on the forum after so long.
                                I don't let my motorcycles interfere with my motorcycling...

                                Join xBhp On

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