General Biking Discussion Approved.

I am still amused to read my name on that list and am still in that "lol" frame of mind because of that

1. Why're VTwins still being produced though I see inline engines have better air cooling effect (correct me if I'm wrong here)

vTwins have a design effeciency when it comes to gearing. They dont need shortly geared ranges like the Inlines. This is perhaps you see HD with vTwins where the idea is to strut on any gears as long as you want... Then again we also have nasty ducatis, the RSV which also rely on vTwins! So i guess it looks like racing category is using more of inlines (Gixxer!) for the isnane power delivery, whereas the touring and street friendly bikes has vTwins (SV!)

I dont know about the cooling effect so will leave that for the experts! but from the examples listed above it seems to be the other way round!



2. When HD's are in India, hope they're not making a mistake by betting on their huge air cooled VTwins on a tropical weather, especially with Delhi, Chennai & Hyderabad where there're real summers & real people with money to bet on HD's

I think this will get answered when someone answers point 1 in a better manner!


3. With a strong backup of Bajaj family, Kawasaki has been able to bet with liquid cooled Ninja, while on what basis does HD intend to take a share of luxury motorcycle segment? I mean, when Ninja's are being sold in very less numbers, what's the expectation of HD in India? Probably a single digit number annually? I don't think so.

My personal opinion: I am not buying the Ninja 250 because I am sure I will be bored of it in 6 month... 3 Lakhs for 3months waiting and 6 months of fun... I dont think so!
If someone brings the bigger Ninja for a nice price point then I am all game as the bike will keep me happy for a longer time!

Satyen, from what I've observed, it makes no difference when it comes to racing & touring; Ducati's super bikes & street bikes uses the same desmodromic valves in their Ltwin engines. Eg. Ducati 1098/1198/GT1000S/Monster 1100 have all the same LTwin engines but varying power deliveries. Its like MRF saying the tyres we race are the tyres you buy

Anyway, lets hear the opinions from other experts on the points 2 & 3.

@SP i have one doubt on the 1st question... whether inlines are short geared or the V-Twins? i thought V-Twins are short geared...

For 2nd point +1 to that... even i don't like to own a 250R for 3 Lakh rupees... oh am so lucky i don't have 3 Lakh with me now...LOL...

I assume the same too; VTwins have to be revved more than inlines; so may be this is one of the reasons why world moves towards inlines.

I called Ducati, RSV and others as exceptions

You misread it I meant vTwin (on HDs, cruisers etc) doesnt need to have a short geared setup as it generates a lot of torque on lower RPMs as compared to the Inlines which can go on and on (which is why its more popular on a race bred bike!

vTwins has to be revved more to catch up with the Inlines... hence the shorter gearing.
Its like you reach the sweet spot on an vTwin faster whereas the sweet spot on the Inline is on much higher RPM.

What we see on Ducatis and the RSVs and all is a vTwin trying to beat a Inline, hence the maddening short gears. vTwin in true charm is a torquey machine where as the Inline is more of a rush high RPM sweet spot machine!

Phew!

Let's clear up some things first:

1) Location: Parts of the US have equally high ambient temperatures. V-Twins from H-D and other companies run just fine.
2) V-twins in India: When you have V twins like the MT-01 running around in India without any cooling issues, why would H-D have any problems?

Probable sales potential here: From what I gather, the initial response has been very good, and the two segments (Ninja and H-D), are very different, with the customer profiles also being very different. Besides, the entry-level H-Ds are priced very aggressively, and I have no doubt in my mind that they'll sell very well.

Perfecto! and the Gt250 aka the Comet and the Aquillas 'small' vTwins too!

For all the reasons stated above, The V-Twin is to HD, what the 350 single is to RE. Good low end torque, great pull, and a character of its own. So you really cant take it out for the same of better cooling etc, you can improve on the existing design.

- Im sure harley still runs in places like florida, which are equally hot... And moreover a HD owner wont really be taking his bike out in the afternoon heat.. hell i dont take my R15 out unless i really have to ( the bullet is there for such purposes! ), forget the ninja.

- The upper bike segment ( read 10 lakhs plus ), has a market of its own, and over the last two years, they have seen a higher than expected sales figures, hence Honda has no yet decided to launch a 150cc bike that would kill the competition, but the CB1000 and the CBR are available in India.
HD also has seen a higher than anticipated requirement, and interest.

For a lil bit of brainfart - I feel HD is coming to india, to eventually set up operations and manufacturing over here, and save money and labour costs on manufacturing in US. THis will save their arse in the US, and also open them up to other markets in south east asia.

Thank You Rossiter
Few of the basic reasons for me to ask this question were...
1. I'm under the impression that HD's have higher compression ratio than the other engines, so IMO, they tend to generate heat faster than the other engines right?
2. Bikes like MT-01, V-Max, Comet, Aquila, Ninja (single cylinder R15 too) are liquid cooled compared to HD's air cooled engines like Evo & TC engines (exception on V-Rod/Night Rod), so they'll be able to do cool off better than traditional HD engines. Am I right?
3. Moreover, I could see a big difference in the angle of the VTwin engines between Kinetics(Comet/Aquila) compared to HD & that's one of the reason I didn't bring Ducati's LTwin (esp GT1000) into picture. If you look at the LTwins, the air flow & the distance between both cylinders in LTwins will be spacious between the engines due to which there's a large airflow. Correct me if I'm wrong.
4. While I agree that the segments are different, but the target line of customers are nearly (nearly) the same; what I mean to say is, the target customers are the same - people who wants power with leisure riding, but the difference being sports & touring(cruising). Anyone would hardly ride Ninja to work everyday at the risk of spoiling its beauty. Correct me if I'm wrong.

On pricing, I'm not sure if its aggressive as from what I see...
i) The 883L starts are $7000 which works to 3.5L before import & 7L (actually 6.95L Delhi) after import
ii) In the case of Superglide its $13000 working to 6.5L before import & 13L (actually 15.95L Delhi) after import
iii) In the case of Fatboy, its $16000 works to 8L before import & 16L (actually 18.45L Delhi) after import
All the above conversion was done at Rs 50 in conversion rate

That's the one I love huge torque with loads of power

I quite didn't understand what you're saying here, but I assume you're saying that one cannot expect a better cooling in HD unless the existing design is improved - correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.

Right, but JD, when someone's touring, he cannot have this luxury right?

I doubt on this because, IMO, HD has 5 factories in US & none outside US; if they're coming to India with the idea of setting up a factory, then why didn't they go to China years back, where they already have their footprints AND China well known for their manufacturing sector?

- what i meant was, that you cant really take out a vtwin for the sake that the cooling is not efficient on it. You can add forced cooling methods, like oil cooled, liquid cooled.

- Touring is when you accept all the factors around you, roads, weather, temperature etc.. so thats a one-off.. and again.. how many times would you see someone touring on a HD...

- All the major super car manufacturers are looking at india for a market.. and they are getting it.. so bikes are the stepping stones.... to test the waters.. which has been successful till now.

Well the questions are still left unanswered

A detour from the main topic. I ride my Ninja to office everyday.

But I do keep a cover on it and a motion sensor disc alarm for nosy employees.