OF: good one... again! and +1 with Rocky's quote.
this ones funny btw: 'It usually is perceived more as entertainment than anything else'.

a random non-Leh thought: i see less of the 'break-free' hand signals being used in group riding. i mean, empty highway stretches and likewise, its refreshing(for some) to break out of the group, ride your way for sometime, and then get back with the group. just a thought...

and though group ride is great, for the time and money spent on big rides, if dissatisfied, break free, setup next meetup time and place, and ride on... biking is all about the rider and his GF(bike!); ride free; live life - 'live' the ride. even if unhappy with the group, dont loose the biking spirit is what i say.

my 2 pncs...
peace!

While I agree partially to OF's post, to me it is not fair that for being politically correct, good riders need to suffer to the moods and whims of others. I learnt a lot from Vishwas's experience, enough to plan my future rides. What's with not calling spade a spade? I haven't done a group ride ever, because frankly I don't think I can fit in a group. I rode with friends, but that too was never restricted, we just started and reached at the same time, with full middle journey on our own.

Some of Vishwas's experiences as posted were so horrifying, even though he laughs at them, from day 1 to last day, I am not sure whether I have the mental ability to endure that. In heart, I appreciated him for enduring all the things and taking them very lightly. And here a thread starts about how people should maturely behave?! I have read some very beautiful articles from Old Fox, and respect him as a writer. But this post educates the message carriers, that don't publish full information, inform only the goody goody things, and people will be happy.

"Never has the washing of dirty linen in public been educative for anyone. " I object, I learned a few things.

Now I bet the supporters will say 'don't take personally'. Don't be so politically correct, name the people.

Ani - Well, let me try pointing few lines that're very clear from OF's sirs post, that could help us clarifying things better as well as lead to healthy debate. Just check the following lines...

Please note the above lines are generalized ones & not intended to any good/bad/mature/newbie/racer/tourer/young/old riders. It simply is GENERAL GROUND RULE to follow before any group rides.

Consider this, if you were running a school & happen to see one student who likes to study only between 8:30 AM to 3:30PM instead of the regular school hours 9 AM to 4 PM; adding spice, say, he's "THE GENIUS"; as a member in the management, would you agree to it? How would you percieve the situation?

Let me give a real time incident that happened. Before the TSG2G (Tri State Get Together) at Yercaud, we guys from Chennai had 2 pre-rides arranged for all the newbies & experienced riders for 2 weekends before the TSG2G. Trust me, most of us made mistakes in the first ride & all of us learned in no time; during the second ride, most of us were already familiar with rules to follow, everyone sticked to the rules & trust me, when we returned back, we rode back at very good speed & we could all feel the sync. Ofcourse, there were people who couldn't catch up with certain members, however, all of us knew where to catch up & we also knew how to catch up with them. During the TSG2G ride, we were about 19 guys & every single soul enjoyed the rides be it fast or slow group. I feel this is what OF sir was communicating in his post.

The idea what OF sir says is simple; just set the ground rules in a group ride as what's your ability & what you cannot; it always not necessary that the group disagrees to one individual.

Imagine an individual rides slow in a group & he has a concern on it; the individual could sweep & the fast group could ride forward & wait at pre decided location & wait for the sweep.

If the above couldn't make sense to you or if you've understood & that is not what you intended, pls pen down your thoughts; lets take a healthy debate on this. I'm sure there will be many people.

I do not have any objection to Old Fox's observations about group riding. Rather, as I have no experience of group rides, I completely trust yours and Old Fox's observations, and should I need to ride in a group in future, I will definitely remember them. My objection is to present only the one sided picture of happy ride, and hiding the ugly sides. Why so aversion to pointing mistakes? We learn by mistakes only. I am not condemning any particular biker, infact I noted while reading Vishwas's log, that I too have some of the traits due to which the group suffered, and I will definitely keep in mind to ride with similar people only, should the time and need arise, as I don't want anyone else suffer because of me.

Therefore, my objection is not to the points related to group riding, but related to conveying the message in public. Reporting the events as happened is the spice that makes the bland triplog a story. If not for these details, what is a log but a time line of events? If we are suppressing all the hot, sour, bitter, salty tastes, and allow only sweet taste to be written, it will be a Karan Johar film with heavy diabetic sweetness!

Though some logs tend to be too hot.... like Kolhapuri dishes

EDIT: About the school, if the boy studies at half an hour difference, it's ok. But what if he studies only from 4pm to 8pm, and the rest of the times disrupts class?

Well, just to clarify especially on Vishwas thread
Yhe thread hardly has 10% account of what all could have been better managed. I was a part of the original plan, and then slowly it evolved and eventually evolved without me! but I still know a lot of things about the planning and preparation.

To summarize the whole issue in a few lines
1) Vishwas was the MOST planned and prepared rider for the trip from the Pune side, like he said it was his 'dream come true' thing
2) Alankar was preparing well for the ride... he even did a pre endurance testing ride!
3) SpyD had a lot of variables in his plans but rest assured he has clocked enough KMs to manage this tour
4) Rest all of them had some issues or others, be it finance or time or anything. Not saying that any of them were not 'deserving' for the ride! But yes there were issues and then there was even laziness.


When point 4 threatens point 1, it will always create what everyone here said "compatibility issues"

Why should someone who prepared for the ride suffer because some one else chose to be to callous about everything?

Trust me, there are still a lot of smaller issues which are not even posted on that thread! What was posted was purely in form of banter!
Rest assured we could also see some MotorBreath bashing on the thread ! but the way he will react to it would be definitely different from the way Inder has reacted\responded to it!

Vishwas: Please continue the trip log! I have a long day at office to kill! This time please avoid "writing anything which you think will offend Inder"

lol - I hope that isnt "everything!"

The fact remains, all of you went for the ride, had fun and came back... you dont have anything to prove to anyone... so no point in making a joke if the person is not willing to take the joke sportingly! Chillax and lets ride together again soon!

@Old Fox.....

Wont comment on the debates happening on this thread, as I feel issues like these are extremely relative, and totally person and perspective based. In short, there are probably no rights and wrongs. Now getting straight to the original write-up...

Splendidly expressed Old Fox. And a fabulous use of words, and getting your point across. Truly characteristic of what one may now classify as "The idiom of Old Fox" I noticed that you have quite a few articles floating around on xBhp, and unfortunately I haven't read many of them yet. Now after being exposed to your writing prowess here, I simply must get myself to reading your earlier ones.

"Compatibility check".....now that's something which I'm sure some of the most ardent of tourers wouldn't bother about prior to a big trip. Or maybe they do. Those that do bother about it and are vocal about it, end up being branded as arrogant and choosy; those who don't bother end up "suffering" later on in the trip, when they've obviously reached that stage of no return.

Usually, after a group ride is over, the riders branded as the "nicest riding partners" are the ones who are invariably the most compromising, the most adjusting, and the most giving. To amateur beginners on a tour, the experienced riders are angels if they shift down a gear so as to ride at the same pace as the beginner; they become snobs if they choose to maintain their own pace, and leave the beginner behind. It's all a very dicey subject to delve on, and most riders will always justify their actions.

I, from my personal experience, too have ended up praising better riders for riding along with me, and secretly have disliked it when they happen to zoom off without me. Sounds a bit childish, but it's true. Honestly speaking, in a group ride, it's hard to keep everyone happy, and it'll take a true and mature friendship to sort out the niggles.....a couple of short rides prior to a long one certainly wont suffice. But again, group rides have their own pleasures and advantages, and solo rides have their pluses and minuses too. I'd prefer both, based on various circumstances.

However, your point on penning your grievances down on forums, especially when it's to do with the inadequacies of a riding partner, is definitely uncalled for. In other words, it's fine to point out a better way to have done something during a ride (this ends up being educative in a way), but blaming others, and making it seem as if some were better than the rest (yes, to an extent it's entertainment), such is better best avoided.

Just for the records, I haven't yet conquered Leh. Group or solo? Time will tell. And again for the records, I tend to stop a lot for photos, stretching, and bladder emptying exercises

.....Simba

Wonderfully penned OF Sir...indeed we are blessed to hear such thoughts from you...

Riding to Leh off-late has become a Fad, for some its just update their status on social networking sites to "Been there and done that"...
Being a group ride, no one is bigger than the group and yes each individual has to respect the So called weak-link in the chain...

well I completely disagree to compatibility thing.Me & MG just did this Spiti+leh circuit.Arduous thing to say the least.

both if us are like chalk & cheese with dramatically opposite personalities.

i smoke ,drink & enjoy many a stops.he doesn't (except for photo stops ).
I am extrovert & he an introvert.

As long as you respect each other & each other's traits than other things automatically fall into place.

having different personalities actually helped us around more than if we were of the same nature.specific examples will be shared as & when the thread starts .

+1 Absolutley agreed on this!

Oh and you forgot, one is a school kid and other is an army cadet

A good write up and this is not a recent trend either! I was a member of xBhp's first group ride to Ladakh in sirca 2005 and we came back with similar sentiments echoing in our minds.

Fast forward 5 years and the friendship amongst that "then famous" group of 5 is still pretty intact and we have clocked quite a few short and long rides together. As you grow up, if you are able keep your head in the right place things smoothen out and the fragile "buddy"ship blossoms into lifelong friendship. And once that happens, the plurality of a "group" soon disappears and you tend to go by the cliche "all for one and one for all". Much easier said than done, there isnt any shortcuts to this! Understanding each other and accomodating everyone takes time and some maturity - not every group would achieve that and thats life! Ride on.

Cheers,
Shamik

Glad to see lots of spirited and useful inputs and opinions on this thread. Thats actually what Hard Torque is supposed to be like.

This 'honest and straight talk' thing rides a pretty thin edge on the relationship quadrant. It is so easy to slip into the hierarchy trap without even realising it when you walk this border. One way 'has' to be better than the other and that's where the problem lies.

Animeher points to the utility of straight and honest talk. We all learn from an unbiased dissection of the trip, an uninhibited sharing of the spicy details. Yes, thats enticing and good in a way. But then can a post or two give you the real picture? We are talking of real persons here. If I have a better way with words, I can take apart another person and he probably would be hard put getting his side of the story up at equal value. And there are better ways of sharing and putting things up for learning than turning them into spicy episodes that probably typecast a person in a certain manner. Asrani could never get beyond his 'Jailer' image from Sholay .

Vishwas' logs make for great reading and his unaffected candidness is an endearing trait. His forthrightness did make Inder uncomfortable but I believe they both have been around together long enough to work it out between themselves and plan more rides together, this time 'knowing' what each does. And I definitely was not pointing exclusively at his logs when I penned this write-up though he was obviously included. It was about a trend that walks the edge of personality clashes as knowledge and skill hierarchies are sure to crop up and that one way is better than the other will show face inevitably. And people on the forum will unwittingly encourage that by taking sides. Do the 'truthful introspection' in the privacy of your friendship, of the togetherness your ride had garnered and give everyone here the results of your learning. The process of attaining that experience is irrelevant for strangers on the forum, it is the results that hold value. Put the process on display and you might end up loosing a real friend on the altar of public applause, a misplaced appreciation for braveheart honesty that looks good only as long as someone else is indulging in it and you are nowhere close to getting scalded by the steam.

DK: Compatibility is NOT about being photocopies of each other. The differences or similarities actually are not the issue. The issue is knowing what to expect. You and MG 'knew' each other well enough to accept the apparent 'differences in temperament'. It is the unknowns, the 'surprise revelations' that cause the most problems. And this surprise is two sided. Both are as put off or taken aback by what each does or doesn't. You could turn your differing personalities to your advantage only because you knew the differences. Thats exactly the purpose of the 'compatibility check'.

PS: yes, we did miss you guys by a couple of days. would have been great to catch up somewhere high up in the Himalayan highlands.

Well put Shamik. Like I stated in the article, "And personalities are about priorities and decisions. Which is where the differences and similarities exist.", differences will always be there and are in a way necessary in tight situations. Identical thinking could become a thought-deficient trap. Maturity is about knowing these differences and keeping them in their place. What one does wrong has to be kept apart from what one is. Faults and the person are not the same and realizing this is the core of growing up. Getting in sync with each other takes time and its worth restraining oneself from public sharing of rifts while giving the togetherness time to form a rhythm and grow strong enough to last long.

Even though I support the idea of penning the truth than concealing it, I agree to OF, that a person with an edge (in this case, a better writing flair) has an unfair advantage, and the events may be tilted to favor only one side.

I remember a line in Gandhiji's autobiography. When he was leaving India in youth for education, his mother told him never to eat goat and chicken. But all he saw was meat and beaf. So technically, he could have eaten it and still kept his word to his mother. But he wrote, in such circumstances of unclear decision, always the party with less advantage should be given priority, and hence he remained a vegetarian.

Even in writing or any other communication where one may feel to dissect some one (even if it may be right), still I believe at least between friends, the one with edge should be more careful than the other, because he has the responsibility of power.

Was it too philosophical?

After reading all these posts I dont think I even have an ability to write like that,but just giving it a try to be close to it to express what I feel after reading something like this.

OF, whatever has said have been words of wisdom, and the guidelines for beginners including me, and why not the kind of exposure he has i havent yet ridden 35% of what he has done,starting from kb100 to Bandit!

I cant frame the posts above, like Simba and DCS,have done.Its far beyond my understanding.
And reading OF's post, leads to Dizziness after sometime

Well said Simba, this can really title Uncle's post anywhere around the forum. His saying have been taken as guidings and have been accepted this as by a lot of just begginers in biking like me.
Sitting next to him and listening to his expriences have become a part of my hobby in a g2g.
Perhaps, this is "the jist" of the whole thread!!!

A point made, For what I would say Everyone needs to understand the same, I have had an experince where I had also learnt to be compatible and patient and where someother's had to also bear with me.

One thing I can add here is if you are on ride,find the person who rides closely to your riding style match his compatibilty, do not try to follow someone who is going really fast or beyond your pace to reach,you may not dwell well with him/her(in a worst case scenario)

P.S: I am referring to the Ride to Shimla with a Large group. Thanks Suhail,Rohit Mundra, Anant verma,anshuman and all those who were there for being there and making it an enjoyable and a rememberable trip and making one understand the way he should ride,when he is not alone.


- Cheers
LP

Nice writeup.

I have always wondered about it myself, especially after the HXIII ride to Spiti. I am glad that inspite of some differences in opinion, the friendship stays.

I did a big group ride last year in december. Because of the large group and pillions, we could not reach the destination the first day. But no one fought or said anything to others. Its a group ride. There were small disagreements but no one let that come in between all the fun we were having together. Thanks to my chinese pump, one of the bike's tyre we were trying to fill got a broken valve. We could start very late after getting it fixed but no one showed any impatience and everyone was ready as soon as the wheel was fixed. Its about patience, brotherhood, sticking around for co-riders even if its against your 600 kms per day plans, and enjoying the 'ciggerate door khara ho kar smoke kar' kinda arguments.

I recently did a solo trip for 8 days. It was amazing. However at places I felt if I had company it would have been great.