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**antz.bin** · 10-05-2012, 04:55 PM

Thread Approved

Some Questions:
1. What FE do you get on the bike?
2. Was it raining / were the roads wet when you saw the engine oil light blink?

If answer to #2 is Yes, I think there was just a sensor malfunction which is a known issue. It goes away when you turn off and turn on the bike using the key.

If piston rings are gone, you will white smoke, not black smoke. Black smoke is unburnt fuel, and white smoke is burnt oil.

Black smoke comes when you have an excessively rich AFR, or it could also come when redlining with a dirty air filter since the petrol quantity being fed in at the time becomes higher than what is required in a correct Air Fuel Mixture.

White smoke comes when your piston rings are leaking oil into the combustion chamber which burns alongwith the fuel.

Finally, it is true that Bajaj DTSI oil loses its viscosity in about 3-4k km. So its better that you change around that time instead of suffering later. It does gracefully not last for 10k km as per what is mentioned on the bottle. Definitely not on the P220 at least.

**IronHide Shetty** · 10-05-2012, 05:05 PM

I would suggest SVC
Your bike needs to be repaired first and not modified. Ask for an estimate from the SVC guys you trust.

If am able to find any more info. on this will update here. till then let our experienced p220 owners flood the information/suggestion here.

**The Monk** · 10-05-2012, 05:10 PM

I second antz second question.. Was it raining when you were riding. Because if you put 600 ml of oil in an engine which was not low on oil in the first place, then you might have jacked the engine.

My suggestion is to chuck out all the oil and pour in 1150 ml of good oil and see how it goes. Don't worry about the engine oil light flashing as this is mostly caused due to rain. Also lots of water on the road can cause it to flash. Only then should you think about opening up the engine.

Bajaj oil is good for 1500-2000 kms under hard use and 3000 kms under moderate use. Also make sure those johnny walkers use 20w50 grade. The Gurgaon svc once cheated me by putting in 20w40 and charging me for 20w50. So be careful.

**madhavparashar** · 10-05-2012, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by antz.bin View Post

Thread Approved

Some Questions:
1. What FE do you get on the bike?
33 to 41 depending on riding style. I'll check after i discovered this problem but there is still whales of petrol in there. I believe this problem persisted for atleast a week without my noticing it. Careless of me not to check the oil level during my Agra trip.

2. Was it raining / were the roads wet when you saw the engine oil light blink?
No.

If answer to #2 is Yes, I think there was just a sensor malfunction which is a known issue. It goes away when you turn off and turn on the bike using the key.

If piston rings are gone, you will white smoke, not black smoke. Black smoke is unburnt fuel, and white smoke is burnt oil.

Black smoke comes when you have an excessively rich AFR, or it could also come when redlining with a dirty air filter since the petrol quantity being fed in at the time becomes higher than what is required in a correct Air Fuel Mixture.

White smoke comes when your piston rings are leaking oil into the combustion chamber which burns alongwith the fuel.

Finally, it is true that Bajaj DTSI oil loses its viscosity in about 3-4k km. So its better that you change around that time instead of suffering later. It does gracefully not last for 10k km as per what is mentioned on the bottle. Definitely not on the P220 at least.

My answers in bold.

Thanks a lot for approving and everyone for providing the info.

The Monk: I put 600ml oil today only after confirming the engine oil level was low through that glass that has been provided on right side. That means that the oil had already burnt. The mechanic inserted finger inside exhaust and saw black coating (after 6 kms driving from the time I added extra oil).

I'm pretty sure that the level is fine now as it lies between the two pins jutting out in the window.

Reading all you guys' gyaan, I have decided to reach the SVC 8 'o clock tomorrow and if they ask me to change the piston or something costing in thousands, I'll surely come back to that mechanic.

I'll also see if still the bike is coughing up black when I leave from office at 9 today. Couldn't reach to speeds more than 60 fearing what if the whole engine oil is blown out.

My office is in Noida by the way and after travelling 30 odd kms the engine oil level was intact though very dark. Tensed!!

**muztariq** · 10-05-2012, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post

My answers in bold.

Thanks a lot for approving and everyone for providing the info.

The Monk: I put 600ml oil today only after confirming the engine oil level was low through that glass that has been provided on right side. That means that the oil had already burnt. The mechanic inserted finger inside exhaust and saw black coating (after 6 kms driving from the time I added extra oil).

I'm pretty sure that the level is fine now as it lies between the two pins jutting out in the window.

Reading all you guys' gyaan, I have decided to reach the SVC 8 'o clock tomorrow and if they ask me to change the piston or something costing in thousands, I'll surely come back to that mechanic.

I'll also see if still the bike is coughing up black when I leave from office at 9 today. Couldn't reach to speeds more than 60 fearing what if the whole engine oil is blown out.

My office is in Noida by the way and after travelling 30 odd kms the engine oil level was intact though very dark. Tensed!!

First calculate how much oil is getting burnt in what interval. Dont just go for piston work etc just because you 'once' rode with less oil.
I would recommend a complete oil drain and filling a good pure mineral oil in it and see how fast it gets reduced.
There can just be broken seal or something not so pricey. Getting it checked and testing the bike for two more oil changes(if svc told something pricy needs to be changed) is a prudent approach.
I dont know about other bikes but if you put a finger around the exhaust of my fazer(10 k old).. you will see thick black soot. It does not consume any oil!

**Honda_CBF** · 10-06-2012, 10:56 AM

Yeah, first of all change to any good 20w50 oil asap and then try to gauge how much oil is getting burned in a given kms.. 2nd thing don't rely on sensors and tell tale lights, check oil level every 400-500kms and more frequently if you doubt oil burning. Blue-ish white color of smoke means oil burning. Black smoke means rich AFR. Black dry coating on exhaust tip is OK. Wet black, greasy coating on exhaust tip means oil burning. .The thing mentioned by your mechanic (cheaper alternative) is a re-boreing job (meaning increasing the size of bore).. 0 size is stock. First size over-boreing is 0.25mm over size from stock, 0.50mm is second oversize. Your stock cylinder can only be over bored to fourth size i.e. 1mm. Many says, re-boreing jobs are not reliable and many says otherwise.By the way your mileage seems good to me

**madhavparashar** · 10-06-2012, 02:53 PM

Muztariq:

I'm driving below 4k RPM now. Do you mean to say I should start driving normally at speeds upto 80 and see if it drains more oil?
Went to Gurgaon Krishna Bajaj SVC today. Just returned from there. Mine was the first bike in the line

Rakesh (The mechanic) told that this would require a new piston costing 6.5k apart from the already 2600 that I paid today (Sprocket-chain set, 2 horns, realay, clubber). He said the bike needs to stay for 3 to 4 days as there were a lot of vehicles to be serviced. I couldn't afford that much time so the problem persists (Allegedly, as per Rakesh). Worth mentioning, Rakesh said that this thing is normal at 25000 km

I had taken 2 cans of Motul 5100 15w50, so had to open both, changed the oil. I plan to go to office (60 km daily travel) at sub 4k RPMs. If all is well for a week, I'll start driving normally. If problem arises, I'll take it to some local mechanic and ask for second opinion.

Honda_CBF:
It was the sensor that drew my attention to the problem the first time, so there is no harm in being cautious if some fishy sensor starts glowing. I had seen it for the first time on the console so had to look into it

Really thanks for explaining the 0 and 50 thing. The local mechanic says he will put 50 bore, and SVC guy says will put new piston

More suggestions welcome.

Note: As usual I feel ripped off at the SVC, or you may say, it is the cost of reliable service that they provide. Why?
1. Labour 300 rupees... ok.
Labour for changing chain set 275 bucks more!! (I saw him do that, I cried for paying 275 bux for the effort it required!)
Add cess and service tax and what not!!

2. I asked at the counter if it was really not possible to change the bill once it gets printed, he said thats true.
I told him that I wanted to check the bill as I had a harrowing experience last time regarding Decarbonising. He allowed me in to have a peek at the screen. Lo and Behold!! 425 rupees for Engine oil change!!!!!!!

Even when I explicitly mentioned no Engine oil change and nothing was mentioned on the job sheet as well. I had my own engine oil which I asked Rakesh to pour into the bike!
Some things never change

How I had thought of going to Chail on 13th October after this service and posting my Motul experience... it's still a dream

**ekm-biker** · 10-06-2012, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post

Muztariq:

I'm driving below 4k RPM now. Do you mean to say I should start driving normally at speeds upto 80 and see if it drains more oil?
Went to Gurgaon Krishna Bajaj SVC today. Just returned from there. Mine was the first bike in the line

Rakesh (The mechanic) told that this would require a new piston costing 6.5k apart from the already 2600 that I paid today (Sprocket-chain set, 2 horns, realay, clubber). He said the bike needs to stay for 3 to 4 days as there were a lot of vehicles to be serviced. I couldn't afford that much time so the problem persists (Allegedly, as per Rakesh). Worth mentioning, Rakesh said that this thing is normal at 25000 km

I had taken 2 cans of Motul 5100 15w50, so had to open both, changed the oil. I plan to go to office (60 km daily travel) at sub 4k RPMs. If all is well for a week, I'll start driving normally. If problem arises, I'll take it to some local mechanic and ask for second opinion.

Honda_CBF:
It was the sensor that drew my attention to the problem the first time, so there is no harm in being cautious if some fishy sensor starts glowing. I had seen it for the first time on the console so had to look into it

Really thanks for explaining the 0 and 50 thing. The local mechanic says he will put 50 bore, and SVC guy says will put new piston

More suggestions welcome.

Note: As usual I feel ripped off at the SVC, or you may say, it is the cost of reliable service that they provide. Why?
1. Labour 300 rupees... ok.
Labour for changing chain set 275 bucks more!! (I saw him do that, I cried for paying 275 bux for the effort it required!)
Add cess and service tax and what not!!

2. I asked at the counter if it was really not possible to change the bill once it gets printed, he said thats true.
I told him that I wanted to check the bill as I had a harrowing experience last time regarding Decarbonising. He allowed me in to have a peek at the screen. Lo and Behold!! 425 rupees for Engine oil change!!!!!!!

Even when I explicitly mentioned no Engine oil change and nothing was mentioned on the job sheet as well. I had my own engine oil which I asked Rakesh to pour into the bike!
Some things never change

How I had thought of going to Chail on 13th October after this service and posting my Motul experience... it's still a dream

Dear friend , From what I have read of your problems. No.1 is you were over- riding with your oil, toward the end you did a long trip . These oils evaporate as fumes when hot You never cared ,as quantity decreased the temp. increased and more oil evaporated that is all. You added 600 ml. oil to make level . this oil was more than what is needed so it came out as black soot and smoke . open your spark plug you will see lot of soot on the tip of the screw body . After some time the extra oil than needed will burn and go.

Rings or piston don't go so soon . Don't worry any thing like that. Rings and piston gone means lot of vibrations and accompanied sounds will be there. You have not reported that . So be in Peace.

What you have to do is , Change your oil Immediately, clean/ change your spark plugs. Clean /change your air filter. and ride.

These svc and mechanics know that you people have money so they will try to cheat.

Note :- Engine will not blast with oil. Ride normally without fear . Now onwards check oil levels every 500 km. Try to do these small things as DIY
Best wishes.

**madhavparashar** · 10-06-2012, 04:05 PM

Thanks ekm-biker. It is true that I was casual about the trip after running 3000 kms on that oil. I had heard of Pulsar 220 reliability so I thought to go for a small 400 km trip as a prelude to the long trip I was planning for 13th October.
As of now, after service, my bike is running on new Motul SS 5100 1.15 l of oil. Air filter cleaned as per regular service. The mechanic also cleaned the spark plugs with sandpaper. So, as you suggest, I should be all good! That's what I hope too. That will be good for my pocket and heart

Thanks for the feedback, it was really to the point.

**The Monk** · 10-06-2012, 06:19 PM

The 220 will be reliable as long as you give her lots of TLC. Running 3k+ Kms on dtsi is the bang opposite.

I doubt if you have any major problem on your bike. Its just the nature of your friendly delhite to help you lose weight. From your wallet that is!!!

**paul.1911** · 10-06-2012, 09:24 PM

Some points which i was going to say was already covered by Honda_CBF & ekm-biker
but i would say, i dont think your piston rings have gone, those mechanics are bogus and always try to cheat becoz they see their benefits only not for others.
When my bike was smoking two mechanics told me that it needs to be bore, I didnt care their words, i was known the problem is something else...and it was smoking due to my damage valve oil seals. I changed and problem solved.

In every bike the engine oil travels through the side of bore to the head and returned from the other hole. In these holes oil seals were used (which is known as head oil seals) if these get damage then oil will get into the combustion camber and bike will smoke. If valve oil seals get damage then also oil will travel to the combustion camber cause smoking. Hence, the oil will become dark back very soon @1000kms.

These oil seals get hardened damage with the engine heat over time and needs replacement whenever the head is opened after 10k or 15k. But mechanics never change it and customer suffer from it.
Some use the gasket sealant on it...which is not good.
So, first u need to confirm that every oil seals in the head are new. If it has not been replaced then your problem surely lies there.
Ask those mechanics who have done DE-carbonizing...the things they have changed.

Also check the exhaust tip, drag your finger and check if its dry or wet, if wet its oil burning.
Another inspection, if bike is leaved over night, an engine oil gets collected on the top of the piston, and when u start your bike in the morning it'll smoke heavily, and after driving for few kms the smoke will become almost negligible. If this also happens in your case, then it indicates that oil is traveling through the valves.
Have u notice this thing?

The mechanic inserted finger inside exhaust and saw black coating (after 6 kms driving from the time I added extra oil).

black coating this is what i was taking about. I'm sure that oil seals have not been changed during de-carbonization & changing it ill solve your problem.
let me tell u, if your engine is perfect na...weather u add any oil no matter what...bike will not smoke at all.
black coating cannot appear in just 6 kms. It takes hundreds of kilometers to get notice (black soot).
So dont worry about your bore. Be happy!

Your problem will get solve soon.

Edit:

Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post

Rakesh said that this thing is normal at 25000 km

Who is this f***king Rakesh mechanic told u its normal at 25000 km? Is that a joke, If i were u I would have kick him so hard in his ass that he'd have forgot how to service a bike.
Dont go to him. Every bike engine easily last for at least 40000. I've seen one discover ran more than 55000, and one caliber ran more than 1 lack without opening the engine. both are from bajaj. How can it be normal at 25000? Sala cheater mechanic.
If every bajaj engine is going to re-bore at 20000-25000 than it wont have such higher sales at market today. The company will become bankrupt and the guys wont going to be crazy for the pulsar as they are.

**Honda_CBF** · 10-07-2012, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post

Honda_CBF:
It was the sensor that drew my attention to the problem the first time, so there is no harm in being cautious if some fishy sensor starts glowing. I had seen it for the first time on the console so had to look into it

Really thanks for explaining the 0 and 50 thing. The local mechanic says he will put 50 bore, and SVC guy says will put new piston

More suggestions welcome.

Note: As usual I feel ripped off at the SVC, or you may say, it is the cost of reliable service that they provide. Why?
1. Labour 300 rupees... ok.
Labour for changing chain set 275 bucks more!! (I saw him do that, I cried for paying 275 bux for the effort it required!)
Add cess and service tax and what not!!

2. I asked at the counter if it was really not possible to change the bill once it gets printed, he said thats true.
I told him that I wanted to check the bill as I had a harrowing experience last time regarding Decarbonising. He allowed me in to have a peek at the screen. Lo and Behold!! 425 rupees for Engine oil change!!!!!!!

Even when I explicitly mentioned no Engine oil change and nothing was mentioned on the job sheet as well. I had my own engine oil which I asked Rakesh to pour into the bike!
Some things never change

How I had thought of going to Chail on 13th October after this service and posting my Motul experience... it's still a dream

Buddy, with "dont rely on tell tale lights" I meant, they tell you to stop riding (so that you can prevent damage) because they only turn on when oil level (and other things) are at dangerously low level.

when you look at the window (provided for oil level checking) you'll notice "min"and "max" mark. oil level at min mark wont trigger tell tale lights.

if you had checked oil level before the trip, or even somewhere in between your trip (before tell tale light turned on) there would have been no need to start this thread. I can understand people like us are always cautious but knowing what can happen before hand is super plus point. and thats what "oil level check interval" equips you with.

also piston change with re-bore jao is nessesary but 6.5 k Rs for pistons only is a huge rip off

**madhavparashar** · 10-07-2012, 08:04 PM

Thanks a lot Paul.

In my last service at 15k, he did open the circular cap at engine head, opened the engine head and replaced metallic chip-like strips and closed it back with an adhesive (whitish). I think he called it resealing.

Another inspection, if bike is leaved over night, an engine oil gets collected on the top of the piston, and when u start your bike in the morning it'll smoke heavily, and after driving for few kms the smoke will become almost negligible. If this also happens in your case, then it indicates that oil is traveling through the valves.
Have u notice this thing?

Absolutely. This is the thing I have been observing since two mornings, and by the time I reach destination (say, 15, 20 kms) it is negligible. And that too only if I throttle hard (redlining in neutral).

As I told earlier it's my bro's bike. I told him the problem and he was literally furious at the thought of piston to be replaced at 20k kms. We went 17 kms to our destination last night, he rode the bike. He redlined it once and rest of the times he changed gears at 8k RPM. Total weight around 160 kgs. I thought to myself this is it!!
If engine oil lowers: Problem
Otherwise: All good

To my pleasant surprise, the oil level was intact. On reaching hotel (destination) the engine was literally smoking hot. It had slight burning smell (like at the time of decarbonising as if rust is vaporised). Could see the smoke (Or vapours) coming out from the heated engine. I throttled hard and didn't see any smoke on my palm!! I thought to myself, is it possible that the rest of the Engine oil deposits were burnt off by riding at high RPMs?

Today again we came back from there slightly less rash driving style by him. Result: Oil level again between min and max but this time after reaching home when I throttled I could see slight blackness on my palm. Only slight. With no smoke/vapours from the engine.

Decided on a couple of things.
1. To avoid giving bike to my bro for atleast one week

2. Will monitor engine oil level this week traveling at sub 6k rpms. Hoping to cover 300 kms this week by daily commute. Should give a clearer picture.

I believe if the problem was really serious, after such hard riding, at least some sign of fatigue must have been shown by the bike.

If somebody is offended by my bro's riding style (Total Love and Care concept), I'm sorry but can't say anything to him. He is elder and owns the bike

Honda CBF:

piston change with re-bore jao is nessesary but 6.5 k Rs for pistons only is a huge rip off

Necessary or not I doubt now at this stage. But 6.5k includes many things that our hero Rakesh blurted out quickly. I remember him saying piston, clutch plate will be changed. There were one or two more things. As he said "Aapki bike kaam to maang rahi hai"

**Honda_CBF** · 10-08-2012, 01:00 AM

@ madhav, according to your feedback bike seems ok, still its not very sure, but you definitely don't need any re-bore job at least now. . As you said, about visible smoke after cold start; this can be because of leaking valve guide seals. When engine is cold, oil manages to get past seals into combustion chamber. But when engine heats up, clearance reduces, and seals work perfect. Hence no oil burning. . Also re-bore, new piston, clutch plates, pressure plate, new valves, all seals, engine oil, labour, should not cost 6.5k. Max it should cost 5-5.5k. There are people who have got done these kind of Job at around 4k Rs (down here) if you are getting new chain set, brake pads, new brake oil, airfilter, spark plugs etc then only 'I' feel the quote of 6.5k justified.

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