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  • #16
    Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
    In my last service at 15k, he did open the circular cap at engine head, opened the engine head and replaced metallic chip-like strips and closed it back with an adhesive (whitish). I think he called it resealing.
    Yes this whitish thing is gasket sealant. I mentioned on my post. It is used to seal the gaskets perfectly this is used in head, bore, crank case etc. He must have used in head gasket. Did he replaced the gasket? because the use of head gasket is to seal the combustion camber perfectly (between piston & valves) so that no compression loss, and to prevent oil leaks to the combustion chamber. This is the gasket which holds the compression of the piston.
    I think this is the gasket u are talking about as metallic chip. Actually it is made up of 3-4 aluminum plates. If this is the thing...then its ok.
    When he replaced this gasket....did u notice any hole on the block and oil seal/o-ring there? Its also needs to be replace.

    Absolutely. This is the thing I have been observing since two mornings, and by the time I reach destination (say, 15, 20 kms) it is negligible. And that too only if I throttle hard (redlining in neutral).
    When u throttle hard it disappear fast because the collected oil in the piston top burns off faster thats it. If u dont do it...it will take time to disappear. Do u know from where this oil is coming to the piston top??
    Its simple....the oil cant travel from the crankcase to the upward direction from the bore crossing the oil ring and two compression rings of the piston. Its impossible. So this clearly indicated that oil is coming from the head. And the only way is valves. Note this point. Your valves oil seals are gone and needs to be change.

    As I told earlier it's my bro's bike. I told him the problem and he was literally furious at the thought of piston to be replaced at 20k kms. We went 17 kms to our destination last night, he rode the bike. He redlined it once and rest of the times he changed gears at 8k RPM. Total weight around 160 kgs. I thought to myself this is it!!
    If engine oil lowers: Problem
    Otherwise: All good
    Look if the engine is all prefect. I'm talking about all the oil seals, o-rings, gaskets if perfect. Whether u drive normally, very roughly (crossing the red lines), like a sport bike or at a top speed continuously. Not a single drop of oil will ever burned. NOT A SINGLE! U will never ever experience the low oil in any engine....no matter how u drive. Engine oil cant get to combustion chamber if everything is perfect.

    To my pleasant surprise, the oil level was intact. On reaching hotel (destination) the engine was literally smoking hot. It had slight burning smell (like at the time of decarbonising as if rust is vaporised). Could see the smoke (Or vapours) coming out from the heated engine. I throttled hard and didn't see any smoke on my palm!! I thought to myself, is it possible that the rest of the Engine oil deposits were burnt off by riding at high RPMs?
    Today again we came back from there slightly less rash driving style by him. Result: Oil level again between min and max but this time after reaching home when I throttled I could see slight blackness on my palm. Only slight. With no smoke/vapours from the engine.
    As u told before a blackish thing on your palm. I think, when u throttle hard the blackish thing which is already in your silencer is peeling off and touching your palm, due to the high pressure of exhaust coming out of your engine. Thats it, it is not generating inside your piston, this cant be happen. So dont care about it. That will clear off automatically via heat and pressure when your engine really stops smoking.

    Decided on a couple of things.
    1. To avoid giving bike to my bro for atleast one week
    2. Will monitor engine oil level this week traveling at sub 6k rpms. Hoping to cover 300 kms this week by daily commute. Should give a clearer picture.
    As you are noticing a smoke in the morning. U can smells the smoke. U can see the smoke coming out of the exhaust. Then its not worth checking it. Seriously wastage of time. I'd say make yourself ready to open a head and first inspect of other problem....like i said about damage valve oil seal. Take it to the good mechanic and ask him to change each and every oil sealing found in the head. Valve oil seals can only be changed in lathe. Those guys cant do it coz a valve spring compression tool is required which they dont own it.

    If somebody is offended by my bro's riding style (Total Love and Care concept), I'm sorry but can't say anything to him. He is elder and owns the bike

    U dont know about my condition. Me have two bro's one elder & one younger...both drive my bike like when a bullet came out of the gun really abuse it very hard!

    Necessary or not I doubt now at this stage. But 6.5k includes many things that our hero Rakesh blurted out quickly. I remember him saying piston, clutch plate will be changed. There were one or two more things. As he said "Aapki bike kaam to maang rahi hai"
    My hero honda clutch plates were lasted for 65000 km....yours can still run i think.
    When your bike was new..did your bro crossed the limits? Like a new engine shouldn't be ran above 50 or 55 kph. If crossed, serious damage can happen. Also i dont know how well your engine was maintained before. Like running on a low engine oil can also damage the block piston.
    So, i would say first go with what i've said above. Chances are more likely to get everything perfect on that. If not...that thing is not going to put u in any kind of loss. Let me know what is going in your mind now.
    In fact i'm not a god.

    Note: I'm not a perfect mechanic guy but i know how things work. I've never experienced Bajaj bikes, but functions of all the vehicle from the bike to the trucks are same, only the designs are different. I've experienced this same thing on my bike, therefore, from that experience i'm telling u to do this. Also for yours problem, i'll get to my nearest bajaj SC and will talk to the mechanic what they say.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
      If somebody is offended by my bro's riding style (Total Love and Care concept), I'm sorry but can't say anything to him. He is elder and owns the bike
      Mate thats the way a 220 is supposed to be ridden. Redlining and pelting it. The TLC (Tender Loving Care) is with respect to maintenance and all other times when you are off the saddle. In fact the 220 behaves best when she is ridden hard!!!

      If he put that white paste thing on the engine head, then it probably means that the oil was leaking from the engine head. A common thing for 20k kms 220. And the leaking oil from the head, must have caused the oil level to drop. Same thing had been happening with my bike. Got the head re-sealed last month at a regular service. Only difference was that I would regularly monitor the oil level and I never would take my bike out on the highway with a leaking head. But like I said before I don't see any serious damage done to your bike. What if it can handle redlining and rough necking!!!
      Biking is not about what you have between your legs, its all about how well you use it!!!!!!!

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      • #18
        A brand new original block + piston + piston rings kit for P220 costs Rs.2.8k when bought from authorized service center.

        Whenever topping up oil, be careful not to fill too much. If you do, the excess oil burns off and the bike keeps on smoking till it does. So it is always better to change oil rather than topping up since you never know how much topping up is needed.
        Advice is a form of nostalgia.
        Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

        Antz Travelz!! | South India Exploration Ride | Leh Triplog (Work in progress)

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        • #19
          Revved my engine hard in Noida before starting for home. Engine was cold. My hand was almost wet and black. Came back to Delhi (30 kms) and then clicked this photo. You can imagine . Engine oil level is nearing lower pin now. Have to act fast as I don't want to top up again.

          Read and saw videos about oil seal valves. Planning to go to green park mechanic tomorrow morning on my way to office to know how much he will charge.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by madhavparashar; 10-09-2012, 01:28 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by madhavparashar

            Revved my engine hard in Noida before starting for home. Engine was cold. My hand was almost wet and black. Came back to Delhi (30 kms) and then clicked this photo. You can imagine . Engine oil level is nearing lower pin now. Have to act fast as I don't want to top up again.

            Read and saw videos about oil seal valves. Planning to go to green park mechanic tomorrow morning on my way to office to know how much he will charge.

            you should not have revved hard a cold engine.. even my bike, 252xxkms done can turn anybody's palm go black with moist feeling. its not a problem.

            there will only be problem if it smokes when engine is hot
            http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Honda_CBF View Post
              you should not have revved hard a cold engine.. even my bike, 252xxkms done can turn anybody's palm go black with moist feeling. its not a problem.

              there will only be problem if it smokes when engine is hot
              As much as I want to believe it, I don't think this is healthy. I'll get it repaired urgently once I'm sure engine oil has gone below the lower pin. Wish saturday comes a couple of days earlier . That's the only day I can sit relaxed and see the bike being worked on. Anyone any idea how much would Oil seal valve replacement cost?
              I also plan to call Mr. Dileep of Gurgaon Krishna Bajaj for a quotation. He supervises probiking stuff there.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by antz.bin View Post
                Whenever topping up oil, be careful not to fill too much. If you do, the excess oil burns off and the bike keeps on smoking till it does. So it is always better to change oil rather than topping up since you never know how much topping up is needed.
                Overfilling the engine with oil does not cause oil burning.. What it does is:
                With every rotation of the crankshaft the oil will be churned, causing excessive aeration. This may generate foam and air entrapment.
                Air entrapped oil is hard to pump and would eventually lead to overheating of the oil and loss of oil flow and engine damage (may I call it engine seizure in extreme cases).



                Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                Revved my engine hard in Noida before starting for home. Engine was cold. My hand was almost wet and black. Came back to Delhi (30 kms) and then clicked this photo. You can imagine . Engine oil level is nearing lower pin now. Have to act fast as I don't want to top up again.

                Read and saw videos about oil seal valves. Planning to go to green park mechanic tomorrow morning on my way to office to know how much he will charge.
                Its time to get it done.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                  As much as I want to believe it, I don't think this is healthy. I'll get it repaired urgently once I'm sure engine oil has gone below the lower pin. Wish saturday comes a couple of days earlier . That's the only day I can sit relaxed and see the bike being worked on. Anyone any idea how much would Oil seal valve replacement cost?
                  I also plan to call Mr. Dileep of Gurgaon Krishna Bajaj for a quotation. He supervises probiking stuff there.
                  yup right.. but it can be stretched to 25k kms easily i think. but if you want your bike in mint condition then get it done. and yes get the wrok done in front of you
                  http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                    Anyone any idea how much would Oil seal valve replacement cost?
                    My bike oil seals cost Rs.60 dont know about yours, assume may be around 150 more or less... Make sure u only buy valve oil seals and not a valve kit. Valve kit includes valves+oil seals. This may cost u 1000 or more. Valves can run for 1 lacks kms and yours is only 20k.
                    Cant say about labour charge...all u need to do is to ask ASC to open the head, and u can take that head to the lathe and give the head+oil seals to fit it. And also tell them to lap it if necessary. For fitting may charge u about 20-30 or max 50. Lapping done here in my city for Rs.50, cant say about yours.
                    And when all done take that head back to the ASC to fit it. If they again change the head gasket will cost u more.

                    I found one link where guys were talking about same kinda problem about pulsar on another forum
                    this may help u to get estimation... pulsar 150 dtsi - disappearing oil! - Team-BHP
                    But remember the guy sagarpadaki who had got a total pocket cost of 2300 also includes new valves+lapping+timing chain+tensioner....so u r absolutely not going to replace these.
                    Wait i'll find time today to get to the nearest bajaj ASC.
                    Last edited by paul.1911; 10-09-2012, 03:15 AM.
                    | SOL 68s | Rynox Tornado Pro | Rynox Advento | Cramster TRG2 | Scoyco MC20 | Hero 5 and SJ6 |

                    Adjusting Tappets FZ25 www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhiJGtd_Xigl
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                    Visit here for more DIY www.youtube.com/c/LifeofPal

                    DIY - Foam Air filter Cleaning & Oiling / Horn Repair Guide / Replacing Motorcycle Fork Oil

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by muztariq View Post
                      Overfilling the engine with oil does not cause oil burning.. What it does is:
                      With every rotation of the crankshaft the oil will be churned, causing excessive aeration. This may generate foam and air entrapment.
                      Air entrapped oil is hard to pump and would eventually lead to overheating of the oil and loss of oil flow and engine damage (may I call it engine seizure in extreme cases).
                      Well, I was only talking from firsthand experience. Oil was overfilled in my bike on August 14 2012 by the mech who changed my bad clutch after crossing the horrible Rohtang Pass. The bike smoked all the way from Manali all the way to Sundarnagar, a total of 130odd km. I knew exactly what was happening, but I decided to take it slow till then. Anyways, after 130odd km in the mountains riding at 60-70kmph, the bike suddenly stopped smoking. All this happened on August 15 (all mechs / SVCs were closed). I did a total of ~1250km between the morning of August 15 and the night of August 16 including a 2 hour, 1 stop high-speed run on the 186km Yamuna Expressway. No way the engine seized due to overfilling the oil or wherever/however I rode the bike. The way I treated the bike immediately after the excessive smoking can easily be termed as an 'extreme' scenario. The bike is still doing good right now, no issues at all. Maybe it is a built in feature in the Pulsar 220, but when this oil was drained on the morning of August 17 at an authorized BAL SVC, the quantity of drained oil was exactly how much it should have been, i.e. the correct quantity. And just so you know, The smoke was coming out from in front of the crankcase. Not from the exhaust.

                      @Madhav Parashar: I also ride a Pulsar 220 DTSi. And it definitely does not require babying around. There will be moisture on the hand if you rev it on cold engine. Refer my first post on this thread. If it is black, its not oil. Burning oil is always white in colour.

                      How are you checking oil level? I hope you are doing it with the engine off with the bike parked on center stand on flat ground. Or else you will never get the correct reading.
                      Advice is a form of nostalgia.
                      Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

                      Antz Travelz!! | South India Exploration Ride | Leh Triplog (Work in progress)

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                      • #26
                        Today, on my way to office went to local mechanic from where I buy Motul oil.

                        LM -> Local Mechanic

                        Me: Will you be able to change the oil seals?
                        LM: Which oil seals?
                        Me: The engine oil valve seals. (Confident after watching on you tube how they function.
                        LM: All of them?
                        Me: (Errrr....) ... Yes. (There goes youtube )
                        LM: You will ask to change oil seals, then I can't guarantee if problem will resolve or not. It may give even more smoke than before.
                        Me: Why do you need to change the piston. It doesn't smoke all the time.
                        LM: How do you know? You are driving. You can't see behind if there is any smoke.
                        Me: I reach Noida and just get down from the bike and throttle it, no smoke!!
                        LM: May be the bike is made for Noida then, HEHEHE! (Asshole!!)

                        Engine was off for 5 minutes now, and having ridden 5 kms to this mechanic I thought lets give it a try in front of him. I started the bike and throttled 9k rpms, no smoke. He throttled, 11k rpms, again there was smoke. (Goddammit)

                        Me: You mean to say there is no possibility that only the oil seals are gone?
                        LM: Yes
                        Me: How would you say that the piston is gone?
                        LM: There will be a line on it.
                        Me: A crack you mean?
                        LM: No, a line. Crack is when the bike seizes. (Please confirm if thats true. What if all pistons have a line?)
                        Me: What if the piston looks fine? Then will you just replace the seals or whatever is damaged?
                        LM: Piston once opened, will not be feasible to put it again.
                        Me: How much for the work you want to do on this? (Reboring and inserting size 50 piston???)
                        LM: 3k to 3.5k
                        Me: Including Labour?
                        LM: Labour 750. (4,250, hmm....)
                        Me: Ok, I'll be back (Ironically exactly the opposite how Schwarzenegger says it)


                        Called our guy Rakesh (Ra) who is a mechanic at Krishna Bajaj Gurgaon...

                        Ra: How many kilometres done by your bike?
                        Me: 20300. Black smoke problem. It seems that only the oil seals are gone. Will you be able to change just that?
                        Ra: No. The whole set would be changed if it is opened once. (Same thing said by both)
                        Me: But the bike doesn't smoke after it has been driven for a while. It only smokes in the mornings or when engine is cold.
                        Ra: Yes. Thats because there is fresh engine oil in there. When it will start getting over, then you will see continuously black smoke.
                        Me: Ok, so how much do you think will all this cost?
                        Ra: 6.5 to 7k (Didn't dare ask if it included labour cost. I gathered myself.)
                        Me: And what all will be changed in this?
                        Ra: New size 0 piston and cylinder, valve seals, clutch plate. Complete set will be changed.
                        Me: Ok

                        Guys, please pour in your thoughts. Don't want to get stuck in the middle of the road to find out that the engine is seized!
                        Engine oil level is still fine, having ridden 140 kms since last oil change.
                        Last edited by madhavparashar; 10-09-2012, 02:10 PM.

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                        • #27
                          First of all, stop worrying about the bike now. If you have to change the block piston, it will cost the exact same money whether you change it now or after 10k more km. Oil won't go dry in 140km. As long as the engine oil level with bike parked on main stand and the engine off is between the 2 marks, there is nothing to worry about. If you are unsure about the quantity of oil inside right now, drain-measure-topup.

                          Secondly, start your troubleshooting with the basics. The bike is almost exactly 20k km old. The change interval for the following is every 10k km. Replace them:
                          1. Air Filter
                          2. Spark plugs
                          3. Head seal gasket

                          Add another item to this replace list. Namely
                          4. Engine oil

                          Doing this scheduled preventive maintenance should solve 1/2 the problem (as per my estimates, it should solve all your problems). Pulsars are known to chew through old engine oil like nobody's business. My bike also burnt about 400ml of oil with no sign of any smoke when it was 24-25k km old. But it all went back to normal as soon as I got the aforementioned 4 items changed. Use the VFM DTSI 10k for some more time if you are worried it will eat through expensive oils. But do your basics before you spend time, money and effort on fancy things like block/piston/valves/seals and stuff.
                          Advice is a form of nostalgia.
                          Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

                          Antz Travelz!! | South India Exploration Ride | Leh Triplog (Work in progress)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by antz.bin View Post
                            First of all, stop worrying about the bike now. If you have to change the block piston, it will cost the exact same money whether you change it now or after 10k more km. Oil won't go dry in 140km. As long as the engine oil level with bike parked on main stand and the engine off is between the 2 marks, there is nothing to worry about. If you are unsure about the quantity of oil inside right now, drain-measure-topup.

                            Secondly, start your troubleshooting with the basics. The bike is almost exactly 20k km old. The change interval for the following is every 10k km. Replace them:
                            1. Air Filter (Not changed till now I assume)
                            2. Spark plugs (Both changed in 16600 kms service)
                            3. Head seal gasket (This was also done in 16600 kms service.)

                            Add another item to this replace list. Namely
                            4. Engine oil (Last changed at 20200 kms service)

                            Doing this scheduled preventive maintenance should solve 1/2 the problem (as per my estimates, it should solve all your problems)
                            (Seems as per your suggestion I need to change just the air filter, which was anyway cleaned 140 kms ago).

                            Pulsars are known to chew through old engine oil like nobody's business. My bike also burnt about 400ml of oil with no sign of any smoke when it was 24-25k km old. But it all went back to normal as soon as I got the aforementioned 4 items changed. Use the VFM DTSI 10k for some more time if you are worried it will eat through expensive oils. But do your basics before you spend time, money and effort on fancy things like block/piston/valves/seals and stuff.
                            Please find my inlined replies in bold.

                            Thats a sensible suggestion as I don't need to panic right now. Oil level is fine.

                            FYI: I didn't let them add any additives this time during service thinking it's waste of money. But the mechanic recommended saying you can add it yourself by buying the additives at any petrol pump. He said that after seeing the spark plug (Silverish coloured) and asking the average (40)
                            Last edited by madhavparashar; 10-09-2012, 03:09 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                              Today, on my way to office went to local mechanic from where I buy Motul oil.
                              LM -> Local Mechanic

                              LM: You will ask to change oil seals, then I can't guarantee if problem will resolve or not. It may give even more smoke than before.
                              Me: Why do you need to change the piston. It doesn't smoke all the time.
                              LM: How do you know? You are driving. You can't see behind if there is any smoke.
                              If problem will not solve then it will also not give out more smoke ever.

                              Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                              Me: You mean to say there is no possibility that only the oil seals are gone?
                              LM: Yes
                              Me: How would you say that the piston is gone?
                              LM: There will be a line on it.
                              Me: A crack you mean?
                              LM: No, a line. Crack is when the bike seizes. (Please confirm if thats true. What if all pistons have a line?)
                              Not a god of engineer can say about bore without looking with his open eyes. Then how a mechanic can tell.
                              Its not crack, just a line on the bore/cylinder.
                              You can do one thing, when the head is opened, u can look to the bore if it is worn out or not. (You have to do this to save yourself some from big pocket damage)
                              You can move the piston down rotating the alternator either way. You will see black layer of engine oil all over the cylinder (that is fine). Take a soft cotton, wet it on petrol, and clean the cylinder (dont listen to any mechanic if they say u anything, u just do your own work its your bike, nothing will get wrong)
                              Now, when cleaned u'll see a shining cylinder now like a steel. Inspect it for any line carefully from down to the upward direction. and if dont see any line, any mark nothing. Then your cylinder is absolutely fine.

                              LM: Piston once opened, will not be feasible to put it again.
                              He is wrong. Actually, when opening a block, piston should not been taken out of the cylinder. because the rings are perfectly set, if taken out then it cant be inserted. But a new rings can easily be installed and will easily last. Some mechanic says it will not last. Actually it will not last if cylinder is worn out i.e, line. If cylinder is fine, then it will work like a charm

                              When opening a block, piston should be at top of the cylinder, then taking out the block, piston will be going down, and when it reach the end of the block. It is being separated through its dongle pin. And can be fitted back again in the same way. Nothing wrong will happen & will definitely run.

                              One IT engineer sibun has wrote this thing on my profile visitors message, u can also check that out. Here is the copy

                              Why will rings not last. Most mechanics change ring when the bore is worn out. So they think it is a temporary measure. But in your case bore is not worn out. You need to change ring because the old rings are set in a particular manner to the bore and once opened you cannot set it. So what we do is insert new rings and run in for 500 kms for new ring to set. Also you can lightly hone your cylinder while installing new rings so that compression increases.
                              Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                              Me: 20300. Black smoke problem. It seems that only the oil seals are gone. Will you be able to change just that?
                              Black smoke usually indicated excess fuel is burning. Sometimes this means you have a blocked air filter, or your injection system is malfunctioning. Excess fuel will usually effect engine performance, reduce fuel economy, and produce a fuel odor but black smoke from the exhaust is not, a great cause for alarm. Until and unless you see the oil level is going down.

                              Originally posted by madhavparashar View Post
                              Guys, please pour in your thoughts. Don't want to get stuck in the middle of the road to find out that the engine is seized!
                              Engine oil level is still fine, having ridden 140 kms since last oil change.
                              Engine is not seized nor it will seized. If engine oil is same, then i would say to wait.
                              Your fuel injection system is may malfunctioning. Coz burning oil let out white/blue smoke but yours is black.

                              Post 2-3 pics of your spark plug first. Does your bike was smoking before decarbonizing? or if they have fiddled with your fuel injector?
                              | SOL 68s | Rynox Tornado Pro | Rynox Advento | Cramster TRG2 | Scoyco MC20 | Hero 5 and SJ6 |

                              Adjusting Tappets FZ25 www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhiJGtd_Xigl
                              Engine Oil & Oil Filter Change www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AZ5MlXF7dc

                              Visit here for more DIY www.youtube.com/c/LifeofPal

                              DIY - Foam Air filter Cleaning & Oiling / Horn Repair Guide / Replacing Motorcycle Fork Oil

                              Read This Before You Buy Any Halogen Bulb
                              Engine Overhaul

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                              • #30
                                Black smoke usually indicated excess fuel is burning. Sometimes this means you have a blocked air filter, or your injection system is malfunctioning. Excess fuel will usually effect engine performance, reduce fuel economy, and produce a fuel odor but black smoke from the exhaust is not, a great cause for alarm. Until and unless you see the oil level is going down.
                                The air filter was cleaned this time. I wonder why the mechanic didn't recommend to change the filter. They don't miss such chances.
                                My bike is well on its way to give an average of 40 again!


                                Post 2-3 pics of your spark plug first. Does your bike was smoking before decarbonizing? or if they have fiddled with your fuel injector?
                                He did not touch the carb. Decarbonizing was done in the June service (at 16600 kms). He took out air filter, started the bike and trickled water directly through a nozzle maintaining moderately high RPMs all the time. In 2 minutes I could see vapours from the engine smelling of burnt rust.

                                Will attach Spark plug pics in this post itself.
                                Last edited by madhavparashar; 10-10-2012, 09:19 AM.

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