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ZMR PGM-FI related query

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  • ZMR PGM-FI related query

    i wana ask that is pgm fi of ZMR able to alter the fuel flow according to air flow and provide right mixture? unlike to that of R15???
    We xbhpians pledge to wear helmet while riding

  • #2
    Query Approved.
    :)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by RhythmRana99 View Post
      i wana ask that is pgm fi of ZMR able to alter the fuel flow according to air flow and provide right mixture? unlike to that of R15???
      AFAIK, Yes it is. This is one of the main highlights of Honda's pgm-fi in this particular bike atleast!
      From variable Bhps to a constant 17.6 Bhp.

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      • #4
        I don't know where you heard that R15 does not vary the fuel flow to adjust the air/fuel ratio. All fuel injection systems do it since that is one of the core requirements.

        The Karizma's fuel injection is a bit more sophisticated since it uses 2 more sensors than the R15 to fine tune mixture control.

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        • #5
          I am guessing you want to plonk in a K&N, but not sure whether it would suit your ZMR!

          As someone has already pointed out the PGMFI is a very advanced engine management system and i am sure it will sense the unrestricted air flow and slightly increase the quantity of fuel injected.

          This is just my opinion, you can always try googling it because Honda uses Pgmfi in many of their bikes and people surely must have tried fitting a free flo filter.
          Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut that connects the handlebars to the saddle.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by iamvik View Post
            I don't know where you heard that R15 does not vary the fuel flow to adjust the air/fuel ratio. All fuel injection systems do it since that is one of the core requirements.

            The Karizma's fuel injection is a bit more sophisticated since it uses 2 more sensors than the R15 to fine tune mixture control.

            As you yourself said, the R15 has lesser number of sensors. That's because it has an OPEN LOOP fuel injector system.It cannot alter th A/f ration on its own. It has to be manually altered using the MAP diagnostic tool.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by pavanchirmade View Post
              As you yourself said, the R15 has lesser number of sensors. That's because it has an OPEN LOOP fuel injector system.It cannot alter th A/f ration on its own. It has to be manually altered using the MAP diagnostic tool.
              You are mistaken - an open loop system has no relation to the A/F ratio adjustment capability. AFAIK, even the PGMFI system on the ZMA is open loop. In case you weren't aware, the only difference between open and closed loop systems is the presence of an exhaust oxygen sensor in the closed loop system. It is called a closed loop because the ECU gets feedback from the sensor on the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. This is critical for emission control. Its effect on the A/F ratio is only about 5% of the total data input.

              Neither the R15 nor the ZMA can vary the A/F ratio on their own BEYOND the programmed parameters. The A/F ratio is based on the mass of air entering the cylinder. The program simply tells the ECU to inject a given amount of fuel for a given air mass. So if the air mass changes due to air pressure or temperature changes (due to weather or altitude), the amount of fuel is appropriately changed. So hot days or high altitude will reduce the density of air thus reducing the amount of fuel injected. Conversely, if the engine air mass intake exceeds the programmed amount (due to modifications in the engine) for a given engine speed, the ECU will inject only the maximum allowed for the given speed. This is the reason why engines with major modifications need a reprogrammed ECU to work at their full potential.


              What is a MAP diagnostic tool? Is it the same as an OBD tool?
              Last edited by iamvik; 05-24-2010, 11:09 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by iamvik View Post
                You are mistaken - an open loop system has no relation to the A/F ratio adjustment capability. AFAIK, even the PGMFI system on the ZMA is open loop. In case you weren't aware, the only difference between open and closed loop systems is the presence of an exhaust oxygen sensor in the closed loop system. It is called a closed loop because the ECU gets feedback from the sensor on the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. This is critical for emission control. Its effect on the A/F ratio is only about 5% of the total data input.

                Neither the R15 nor the ZMA can vary the A/F ratio on their own BEYOND the programmed parameters. The A/F ratio is based on the mass of air entering the cylinder. The program simply tells the ECU to inject a given amount of fuel for a given air mass. So if the air mass changes due to air pressure or temperature changes (due to weather or altitude), the amount of fuel is appropriately changed. So hot days or high altitude will reduce the density of air thus reducing the amount of fuel injected. Conversely, if the engine air mass intake exceeds the programmed amount (due to modifications in the engine) for a given engine speed, the ECU will inject only the maximum allowed for the given speed. This is the reason why engines with major modifications need a reprogrammed ECU to work at their full potential.


                What is a MAP diagnostic tool? Is it the same as an OBD tool?
                Ok maybe you know better...or you think you know better

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                • #9
                  ZMR has a Closed loop Fuel Injector. So it would be able to alter the fuel flow according to air flow and provide the right mixture.
                  Photo Gallery[/B]

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ananth View Post
                    ZMR has a Closed loop Fuel Injector. So it would be able to alter the fuel flow according to air flow and provide the right mixture.
                    Can you tell me how it is an closed loop system? I would also like you to clarify what you mean by closed loop. I am asking to know if my understanding differs from yours and if yes, why.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by iamvik View Post
                      Can you tell me how it is an closed loop system? I would also like you to clarify what you mean by closed loop. I am asking to know if my understanding differs from yours and if yes, why.
                      Check these links out! Maybe you'll realise what's wrong with your understanding of it
                      HowStuffWorks "How Fuel Injection Systems Work"
                      Fuel injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      And FYI there is no sensor in the exhaust system connected to the ECU to monitor oxygen in the exhaust gases. The O2 sensor senses oxgen[ie: air] density in the intake air. A closed loop system is the one which has this oxygen sensor and an open loop system is the one which lacks this sensor[R15]. This is the sole reason for need of getting the AFR corrected after installing free flow intakes.DO NOT TRY TO PWN PEOPLE HERE FOR NO REASON.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pavanchirmade View Post
                        Check these links out! Maybe you'll realise what's wrong with your understanding of it
                        HowStuffWorks "How Fuel Injection Systems Work"
                        Fuel injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        And FYI there is no sensor in the exhaust system connected to the ECU to monitor oxygen in the exhaust gases. The O2 sensor senses oxgen[ie: air] density in the intake air. A closed loop system is the one which has this oxygen sensor and an open loop system is the one which lacks this sensor[R15]. This is the sole reason for need of getting the AFR corrected after installing free flow intakes.DO NOT TRY TO PWN PEOPLE HERE FOR NO REASON.
                        From the Wikipedia article:
                        Closed loop fuel injection systems improved the air/fuel mixture control with an exhaust gas oxygen sensor. The O2 sensor is mounted in the exhaust system upstream of the catalytic converter, and enables the engine management computer to determine and adjust the air/fuel ratio precisely and quickly.
                        So, according to you, how exactly am I trying to "pwn" people here?

                        I think you owe me an apology.

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                        • #13
                          Just to clarify,an O2/lambda sensor plugs into the exhaust.not the intake.The intake sensor is a MAF sensor.Ideally,with an unrestricted filter,the ecu should be more than capable of adjusting fuel metering parameters based on the system being closed loop.
                          Open loop systems have,shall we put it politely...."optimised" maps on them,based on the fact that there is no feedback/monitoring mechanism.
                          my $.02.

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                          • #14
                            Dude instead of discussing here what an open or closed loop is, can i plz ask the starter of this thread to confirm if there is a small sensor mounted on ur silencer....

                            If there is sone sort of a sensor, u can go in for the k&n else be prepared for a ecu remap
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