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**Noor** · 11-02-2011, 02:21 PM

Thread approved

**Revverend** · 11-02-2011, 08:48 PM

Thanks for the approval noor.

So anyone interested in this ??

**psr** · 11-02-2011, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Revverend View Post

Thanks for the approval noor.

So anyone interested in this ??

download the RTR160 manual and learn about the circuit..
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**Revverend** · 11-02-2011, 09:39 PM

Oh right i actually have that manual.Let me go through,make sense and simplify the one above.

Thanks for the link anyways

Godspeed
Revverend

**Revverend** · 11-03-2011, 08:39 PM

Ok here it goes it took me close to five hours to understand and recreate the circuit from the service manual posted by PSR. Thanks for the heads up mate.

Well it kind of looks shabby and confusing at the first look, but let me explain stage by stage what actually happens .This is to my understanding and I have a lot of doubts which ill post as I try and explain the stages.

Step 1 :

I get to my bike wanting to take it out for a long ride. I plug in the key and unlock.The handle lock is released and the handle is free to turn. I assume there is no electronic process involved and the unlocking is purely mechanical.

I turn the key from "OFF" to "ON" position. Now the self check of all instrumentation runs here. The display is up and the tacho needle at zero.All the other switches on the handle bar are in completely switched position

Question : What exactly happens during the self check.

Step 2 :

The engine is Neutral Position, the neutral switch bridges a signal from the TCI to the N lamp on the console.

Now I am eager to start the engine, the ignition is in "ON" position and I thumb the starter. Nope no response. Ah yes, the engine kill switch (EK Switch) is in "OFF" position. Switch the EK switch to "ON" position and I thumb the starter.

The TCI ,which I assume is the equivalent of ECU recognizes the position of EK switch,Self start switch and sends a signal to the starter relay which checks the position of the neutral switch(Ne.Switch) and the clutch engage switch(Cl.Switch) and triggers the starter motor which cranks the engine.

Now here the starter motor gear is coupled with the crankshaft gear using a solenoid. This solenoid is actuated when you thumb the starter and disengages once the engine is up and running.

Step 3 :

Now that the engine is cranked, to start the combustion the charging coil routes a signal through the RR unit to the TCI which fires the HT Coil subsequently firing the spark plug. The engine is fired completely and the combustion cycle is running.

The pulser coil is used to space the sparks from the spark plug and feeds its signal to the TCI which calculates the timing based on the Throttle position switch (TC Switch) Position and then routes it further to the HT coil.

The pulsing of the spark will vary as the throttle is twisted.

Step 4 :

Now that my engine is up and running ,I slot into first gear and roll off. Its dusk and I want to switch on the pilot lamps until it is completely dark. I use the Light selector switch(LS switch) to switch on to pilots.

Here the lighting coil sends a signal to the RR unit which depending on the position of the LS switch fires the pilots. In the RTR, when the pilots are up, the tail lamp is illuminated, the number plate (NP lamp) is on and the console back light (CL lamp) is lit up.

Step 5 :

I see a speed breaker on the road,I wanna slow down and engage the front and rear brake. The front brake has a switch (FB switch) near the lever and the rear brake (drum in my case) has a spring attached to the pedal which in turn actuates a switch(RB Switch). When either one or both the brakes are engaged, the signal from TCI is routed to the brake lamp depending on the position of the switches.

Step 6 :

I see an idiot crossing the road without looking. There are two things I do, flash the high beam using the pass light and I honk.

When I press the horn switch (HN Switch) the signal from the TCI is routed to the Dual horn setup.
When I press the pass light ,the signal from the RR unit is routed through the Pass by relay (PB Relay) to Head lamp (HL).

I have a major confusion in this head lamp and pass light section as the signal is not routed through the TCI ,so how will the lights know whether the ignition is ON and the engine is running. Someone please clarify .

Step 7 :

I want turn left and switch on the left indicator (TI switch). The signal from the TCI is relayed through a flasher circuit which pulses the signals (something like a 555 multivibrator ??) and lights up the front left indicator (FI Lamp) rear left indicator (RI lamp) and the small flashing indicator symbol on the console.

Step 8 :

Its getting totally dark and I want to switch on the headlamps.

Using the light selector switch (LS switch) I switch on the headlamps. The signal from the RR coil is routed to the head lamp through HIGH/LOW beam toggle switch (HL Switch).The HL Switch can be used to switch from high to low beam and vice versa.

Phew. Long one eh.I guess I ve covered all the blocks in the diagram above.

Well the above narration is totally based on my understanding and compiling four different circuits from the service manual posted by PSR.

Comments and criticism welcome. My understanding might be totally wrong but I will not mind a bit to start from scratch and learn this again.

@psr : I have immense respect for your technical knowledge when it comes to bikes and the ready DIY solutions you give on various threads.Your replies have always been precise and crisp. Appreciate it

Godspeed
Revverend

**psr** · 11-04-2011, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Revverend View Post

Step 1 :
Question : What exactly happens during the self check.
In electronic assisted display system...in the so called digital console, when the power is switched to the digital circuit , a power on Reset pulse is generated to reset all circuits and start them working in sync with each other...so in display you will see everything getting re-set to start afresh...this power on reset is termed as Self check by manufacturer..
Each bike will have different behavior on this aspect .

Step 2 :
The engine is Neutral Position, the neutral switch bridges a signal from the TCI to the N lamp on the console.
No The Neutal indicator is switched on by a contact switch in Gear box.

The TCI ,which I assume is the equivalent of ECU
No TCI stands for Transistor Controlled Ignition and IDI stands for Inductive Discharge Ignition..these are type of Ignition like CDI..which stands for Capacitor Discharge Ignition.
recognizes the position of EK switch,Self start switch and sends a signal to the starter relay
The starter Relay is energised by the starter switch only...depending on the..
position of the neutral switch(Ne.Switch) and the clutch engage switch(Cl.Switch) and triggers the starter motor which cranks the engine.

Now here the starter motor gear is coupled with the crankshaft gear using a solenoid.
Again NO.the starter motor gear is engaged to crankshaft gear through a ONE WAY clutch..ie., the unit will transfer power in one direction of rotation only, and in opposite direction will slip like a disengaged clutch.
This solenoid is actuated when you thumb the starter and disengages once the engine is up and running.No explained above

Step 3 :

Now that the engine is cranked, to start the combustion the charging coil routes a signal through the RR unit to the TCI which fires the HT Coil subsequently firing the spark plug. The engine is fired completely and the combustion cycle is running.
The TCI is dependent on Charging coil and RR ONLY if battery is low in charge..otherwise it is the Battery which will supply the required energy

The pulser coil is used to space the sparks from the spark plug and feeds its signal to the TCI which calculates the timing based on the Throttle position switch (TC Switch) Position and then routes it further to the HT coil.
True..the pulsar oil actually tells the TCI the crankshaft position and the relative piston position in the bore,so that erroneous Ignition Timing will not take place

The pulsing of the spark will vary as the throttle is twisted.

Step 4 :

Here the lighting coil sends a signal to the RR unit which depending on the position of the LS switch fires the pilots. In the RTR, when the pilots are up, the tail lamp is illuminated, the number plate (NP lamp) is on and the console back light (CL lamp) is lit up.
RR stands for Rectifier Regulator..It is the Battery which is the prime source of energy for bike starting in full DC setup.RR will contribute only in case battery is low in charge or dead.

Step 5 :

I see a speed breaker on the road,I wanna slow down and engage the front and rear brake. The front brake has a switch (FB switch) near the lever and the rear brake (drum in my case) has a spring attached to the pedal which in turn actuates a switch(RB Switch). When either one or both the brakes are engaged, the signal from TCI is routed to the brake lamp depending on the position of the switches.
TCI is concerned with Ignition ONLY
Step 6 :

I see an idiot crossing the road without looking. There are two things I do, flash the high beam using the pass light and I honk.

When I press the horn switch (HN Switch) the signal from the TCI is routed to the Dual horn setup.
The horn switch directly sends the battery 12 Volts to the horn
When I press the pass light ,the signal from the RR unit is routed through the Pass by relay (PB Relay) to Head lamp (HL).
The Voltage from the battery is sent to headlight by the Head light /pass switch only.

I have a major confusion in this head lamp and pass light section as the signal is not routed through the TCI ,so how will the lights know whether the ignition is ON and the engine is running. Someone please clarify .
The TCI or ignition has nothing to do with the headlight..unless the head light is powered by the AC from coil..in which case the engine must be running to generate the AC voltage for the headlight.

Step 7 :

I want turn left and switch on the left indicator (TI switch). The signal from the TCI is relayed through a flasher circuit which pulses the signals (something like a 555 multivibrator ??) and lights up the front left indicator (FI Lamp) rear left indicator (RI lamp) and the small flashing indicator symbol on the console.
TCI is only for Ignition purpose.

Step 8 :

Its getting totally dark and I want to switch on the headlamps.

Using the light selector switch (LS switch) I switch on the headlamps. The signal from the RR coil is routed to the head lamp through HIGH/LOW beam toggle switch (HL Switch).The HL Switch can be used to switch from high to low beam and vice versa.

@psr : I have immense respect for your technical knowledge when it comes to bikes and the ready DIY solutions you give on various threads.Your replies have always been precise and crisp. Appreciate it
Thanks for the generous compliment......hope I deserve and live upto it.
Godspeed
Revverend

replies in bold.

**Revverend** · 11-04-2011, 02:47 PM

@psr

Thank you for taking your time out and replying here.But i am a lot confused now.

1. So there isn't a digital processing unit like an ECU here ?

2. Is the charging coil mentioned here basically an alternator ?

3. So all the lamps (Headlamp,Turn Indicators,Console lights,Pilots,Brake lamps) are connected to the battery directly through switches and relays ? There is no processor of sorts involved in the setup ?

4. As all the components run on DC are they connected to the battery all the time through switches and relays and the alternator merely charges the battery after rectifying it (converting to DC) is that right ? Or does the supply switch over to the alternator after the engine is running?

5. My headlight does not switch ON unless the engine is started.That means it is connected to the Alternator coil right ? But my pass light works without starting the engine that means the HL is also connected to the battery ? So the PB Relay switches the supply to the HL or is there another relay in play here ?

6 . So here the TCI gets supply from the battery directly while starting.During running does it switch over to Alternator + RR ?

7. I have done one of my college projects in LUCAS TVS,Padi in the Starter motor section.From what i was told there is a solenoid which does the job of engaging and disengaging of the starter motor to the crank. Whereas you mention a starter clutch assembly here. So how exactly is this clutch actuated.

8. You mentioned pulser coil tells the TCI about the crank position and the relative piston position.So how are these positions sensed ?Are there some kind of limit/proximity switches for sensing the position ? How will the pulser coil give signals to the TCI. Is it not the other way round where TCI processes the signals form the sensors and controls the Pulser coil in turn ?

I guess my confusion with the primary and secondary supply to various components is related to the regular setup (RTR 160) and the Full DC setup (FZ). Can you explain how are the power supplies routed in both the setups.

Please rectify these doubts and i will refine the diagram above.

Thanks for taking your time out for all these basics.I am mighty interested in knowing the actual setup and you totally deserve all the compliments.

I request other members also to pitch in here.This will be useful for the whole community.

Godspeed
Revverend

**psr** · 11-04-2011, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Revverend View Post

@psr

1. So there isn't a digital processing unit like an ECU here ?
ECU is present in bikes with fuel injected engines

2. Is the charging coil mentioned here basically an alternator ?
Yes.

3. So all the lamps (Headlamp,Turn Indicators,Console lights,Pilots,Brake lamps) are connected to the battery directly through switches and relays ? There is no processor of sorts involved in the setup ?
No processor involved. Even with ECU , Head light ,turn indicators ,console lights,brake lights will be mechanical and ECU will not be involved with it.

4. As all the components run on DC are they connected to the battery all the time through switches and relays and the alternator merely charges the battery after rectifying it (converting to DC) is that right ? Or does the supply switch over to the alternator after the engine is running?
If the battery is low in Voltage then, the alternator will be supplying the power ,otherwise the battery will be getting charged and it will be supplying the required power.

5. My headlight does not switch ON unless the engine is started.That means it is connected to the Alternator coil right ? But my pass light works without starting the engine that means the HL is also connected to the battery ? So the PB Relay switches the supply to the HL or is there another relay in play here ?
Yes normal headlight operation in RTR is from Alternator while the pass switch is connected to DC ie., battery circuit.

6 . So here the TCI gets supply from the battery directly while starting.During running does it switch over to Alternator + RR ?
If the battery is low in energy/voltage then the system has to rely on the alternator +RR supply,otherwise it is the battery which will supply the requirement.

7. I have done one of my college projects in LUCAS TVS,Padi in the Starter motor section.From what i was told there is a solenoid which does the job of engaging and disengaging of the starter motor to the crank. Whereas you mention a starter clutch assembly here. So how exactly is this clutch actuated.
There is a starter relay to actuate the starter motor.In cars there is a RPM based engaging mechanism for the starter motor gear, while in the bikes the power of the motor can be transferred only in rotation of one direction.
8. You mentioned pulser coil tells the TCI about the crank position and the relative piston position.So how are these positions sensed ?Are there some kind of limit/proximity switches for sensing the position ? How will the pulser coil give signals to the TCI. Is it not the other way round where TCI processes the signals form the sensors and controls the Pulser coil in turn ?
No ..everytime the magnet in the rotor attached to crank pass the pulse coil a pulse will be produced...the magnetic rotor on the crank is arranged in such a way that the pulse in coil is excited and reaches a peak depending on crank and hence piston position.

I guess my confusion with the primary and secondary supply to various components is related to the regular setup (RTR 160) and the Full DC setup (FZ). Can you explain how are the power supplies routed in both the setups.
There is nothing complicated here...if your energy for entire system comes from the Battery it is a DC setup...If the head light is powered by AC from Alternator, and the Ignition is from the stator coil with CDI,while the rest of systems operate from DC it is AC/DC system..In the first type the entire alternator winding will be dedicated to RR and charging...in the second system one set of windings for headlight power alone will be for Ac ,and one coil to generate the voltage for CDI will be present while the rest will be for RR and battery charging.

Please rectify these doubts and i will refine the diagram above.

Thanks for taking your time out for all these basics.I am mighty interested in knowing the actual setup and you totally deserve all the compliments.

I request other members also to pitch in here.This will be useful for the whole community.

Godspeed
Revverend

replies in bold.

**Revverend** · 11-04-2011, 09:42 PM

@psr

Beautiful.Precise to the point replies.Well i ve refined the picture yet again and i hope i ve got it right this time

Here it goes.This time the picture is self explanatory,hopefully.

And great explanation for the pulser coil.

1.So I still have a couple of questions left with this circuit.In the above figure,should the EK switch (Engine Kill) and IG switch (Ignition) be before the common connecting bar albeit inline with the battery.?

2.Did i miss out any components here,hopefully not *fingers crossed*

3.How does the supply to the TCI switch over from battery to Alt.+RR when the battery is low.I mean there should a relay and a sensor right ? What kind of a sensor is this ?

4.What exactly does the lighting coil do ?

5. Finally,did i get it right ?

I will move on to make similar diagrams for an FI setup,Full DC setup in the next step.

Godspeed
Revverend

**NANOtechnology** · 11-06-2011, 12:59 AM

Hello Revverend.

Sorry to have missed this from quite some days as I was busy with semester examinations.
Besides, i must say its a very good initiative to start up a discussion like this, as many a times auto electricals are something most of us aren't much aware of.

However, its much simpler than how it looks like, and as our legendary PSR has already explained almost everything, there's nothing much I can add more to it.

However being worked on many Electrical modifications on the motorcycle, all i can add is, try to avoid running the spark plug from the battery as much as possible, as i assume only i have been brave/stupid enough and lucky enough to successfully remove the entire stator coil from the bike and re-route everything (yes the spark plug too) from the battery.

DC conversion is a good thing, the APE RR method is the most talked about when it comes to bike electricals, but i highly recommend that convert only those bikes to DC who have a dedicated yellow pole on the stator coil to run the spark plug directly from the coil.
Because if you try running the plug from the battery, coupled with all other load of the battery, after a matter of time the battery WILL GIVE UP.

This will cause incredible mis-firing and also spoil the battery even more as it will remain more in drained state than charged state, and these DRY type batteries get damaged much much quickly if remains drained.

Apart from this i don't think there's anything new that i can add up further.

@ PSR

Just as a query, i wish to know, weather is it possible to just wind 1 pole (of an 8 pole stator) with a thinner wire and route it to the stock RR to run the plug on the current provided by it ??
(too much of a gamble? and trial and error, isn't it ??)
I mentioned this as I've tried tapping one of the ends of the alternator (35 amp one) to the stock RR unit (maybe was too stupid) but after that, neither the alternator is keeping me happy, and I've even burned the stock RR unit.

**NANOtechnology** · 11-06-2011, 01:22 AM

@ Revverend

1.So I still have a couple of questions left with this circuit.In the above figure,should the EK switch (Engine Kill) and IG switch (Ignition) be before the common connecting bar albeit inline with the battery.?

Well, i don't think so, i feel that the green wire from the rr unit goes directly to the TCI, as even if you engine kill switch isn't connected in the wiring, the bike still sparks, i.e the TCI/CDI does get current.
Can't be sure about the IGN switch though.

2.Did i miss out any components here,hopefully not *fingers crossed*

Probably not.

3.How does the supply to the TCI switch over from battery to Alt.+RR when the battery is low.I mean there should a relay and a sensor right ? What kind of a sensor is this ?

Well, as far as I've personally seen, its just 1 wire that goes into the TCI, this goes from the main wiring to the tci directly as a single port, if the battery isn't connected, the bike still sparks which indicates that this could be a regulated AC line.
However if the DC circuit is used with a different RR unit, the wire remains dead so one needs to manually re route it to the battery.

So there could be a possibility that this wire would be tapped from the battery and the charging line using stock rr, coil and wiring setup, as current can be provided from both the ways.

4.What exactly does the lighting coil do ?

A stator coil has 7 to 8 poles and copper wire is wounded on it, 4 or 3 out of these 8 or 7 poles charge the battery, while the remaining 4 poles are regulated AC current generating poles which give current to the headlight.
This is termed as lighting phase or lighting coil too.

5. Finally,did i get it right ?

I think more clear information about the TCI section is needed, however i am sure PSR will help us out on this too.

**psr** · 11-06-2011, 01:28 PM

Here is a simplified diagram of the all DC electrical for a bike...

and here is the full blown circuit for a twin cylinder 250cc bike with three phase generator.

**sajjt** · 11-06-2011, 02:03 PM

@Revverend,

Sorry mate, today only I've seen the PM, been busy with work. Let me congratulate you for the attempt as am sure that if someone goes through the first few pages will give a good insight about the basic electricals. Like Nano said, me too think nothing new has poped up to update to my limited knowledge.

A big hats off to PSR too, for the excellent explanations in lay man's terms

Originally posted by NANOtechnology View Post

However being worked on many Electrical modifications on the motorcycle, all i can add is, try to avoid running the spark plug from the battery as much as possible

Nano, what made u to think so? Just u fried the stock RR by giving a higher amps AC to feed the RR-TCI? Its obvious the lower rated diodes will conk off in no time with a boost in amps. If u feed the rewinded coil to the stock RR battery charging circuit, it will heat up instantly and conk off in no time due to this.

DC feeded (read battery/RR) ignition will perform better than AC ignition in all rpm ranges provided the battery is in good conditions. But at the same time, over loading the electricals will lead to miss firing as the power requirements are higher than the generation on low rpms and obviously the ignition system suffers which leads to hickups. So its better to be judicious in loading the electricals atleast in low rpms.

Originally posted by NANOtechnology View Post

DC conversion is a good thing, the APE RR method is the most talked about when it comes to bike electricals, but i highly recommend that convert only those bikes to DC who have a dedicated yellow pole on the stator coil to run the spark plug directly from the coil.
Because if you try running the plug from the battery, coupled with all other load of the battery, after a matter of time the battery WILL GIVE UP.

This will cause incredible mis-firing and also spoil the battery even more as it will remain more in drained state than charged state, and these DRY type batteries get damaged much much quickly if remains drained.

Nano, what about the other bikes with DC ignitions which runs on full DC like YFZ,P220, ZMA etc by stock? I guess, so long as the power generation and distribution is in balance, there won't be any battery drain and the system can do at par with the stock. Its the excessive load makes the battery condition worse AFAIK.

**psr** · 11-06-2011, 02:51 PM

Has anyone come across a MOSFET IGBT regulator circuit ?

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