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One doesn't buy a new bike for modding; even if they do, its WISE to put the additional money to buy a bike that is more powered. Eg, instead of buying Shine, opt for Unicorn or instead of P150, opt P180 or P220. Works out much cheaper & most importantly STOCK RELIABILITY

Once again, cost of second hand motorcycle + performance mod will cost less; but the point is a big point to consider, which ofcourse is debatable - loss of reliability.

Like the saying goes...
Fast & Cheap is not Reliable
Cheap & Reliable is not Fast
Fast & Reliable is not Cheap

So it's up to one as to decide what they want out of their machines. I hope the above proverb summarizes everything that you've asked.

Coming to cheap bikes first

1. Used bikes:
For pointers on how to select a good used motorcycle, this is a good place to start:



But, if you are considering points such as life expectancy of the motorcycle, it would be better if you get a 1-2 year old 150cc Hero/Honda or an extremely low mileage bike (<12k km). NOTHING ELSE!! And these bikes won't be cheap to buy. If and when you mod it, its reliability will reduce.

When comparing this case with cars, almost all modern cars are built to run with minimal maintenance for at least 2-3 lac km. So even if your mods reduce the life expectancy of a car by 20-25%, its still good for 1.5lac km at least. The same cannot be said about el-cheapo Indian bikes.

2. Low Powered Bikes:
The way to go about bikes is, buy a bike with the level of performance you want from it. As Aargee said, buy a better bike beforehand rather than upgrade it immediately after buying. Works out cheaper and you retain stock reliability and ASC serviceabilty.

No mod (engine related) will give you reliability anywhere close to stock. If upgrading to performance exhausts, it will make your bike
1. Illegal + cop magnet
2. Noisy and uncomfortable + somewhat irritating on longer rides.

The only 3 logical reasons for buying a used motorcycle IMO are
1. You need a cheap ride for a short period (you buy a TVS commuter)
2. You need a fast ride for extremely short distance usage and having some fun or for stunting. (You buy a used RTR/P180 UG3)
3. You are getting a used Ninja 250R run 2.5k km in 1.5 years for under 2 lac.

For any other purpose, stick to buying new bikes.

I have the exact same personal view point as in your post, i.e, buy everything in showroom exactly as per requirements. But that is because in my family its practice to keep a vehicle for 15 years minimum so reliability overrules everything else.

But what about the general case ? Lets say someone wants to change his vehicle every 4-5 years (which I have noticed is pretty common here).

Could you (roughly) quantify things ?

Like say upto n-years second hand is cheaper (for a certain range of bikes) and after that first hand is the way to go. I am looking for that kind of conclusion from this thread.

Its reliability will reduce, yes. But by how much ? Any example ?

Are you generalizing here ??? Wouldn't there be atleast *some* bikes that have car-like reliability (read: possible to run for another 1-1.5 lakh kilometers) after buying second-hand and modding a bit ? What about ported yamaha 2-strokes or something like a joelled R15 or Apache ?

Quick question about the last bit. How important is ASC serviceability ? From an economic and reliability point of view. I am particularly interested in your P220F (because of how much varied opinions people have of Bajaj ASC) although I wouldn't mind you sharing data of other companies as well.

I like point 3

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I would like to raise another question here that I forgot to address in original post.

How about buying a second hand bike of required performance but restoring it to factory condition ?

A classic example is a Bajaj Pulsar or a TVS Apache both of which have (supposedly) cheap and widely available spares and should (in paper) cost less to restore to stock condition ?

It should then continue to be

1. Stock reliable and
2. SVC serviceable

Right ??



PS: mods, could this be moved to Universal Threads since I'm sure it'll be useful for everyone and a lot of valuable points can be raised ?

Buy a new or old vehicle, use it for 3 years & then change it; do it as long as one doesn't mind the loss as long as one makes sufficient income - purely personal choice

As much as your dependency increases

Sorry to say, I don't think there's much to discuss anything on these because I feel everything is personal choice As a thumb rule, owning a vehicle for long term is more economical than changing the vehicle frequently

Agreed that personal choice overrules everything else but I want to take the human factor out of biking and put things in a purely mathematical perspective

Then there're huge number of variables to incorporate...
1. Running Km per day
2. Cost of spares
3. Riding style/pattern
4. Usage pattern
5. Emotional value to the vehicle

Quantify 3, 4 & 5

I am no expert but just my point of view.

I bought a P220 and rode it for awhile. Being a car person, I always felt 21 bhp was very less. Even my commuter Wagon R had 64, so I always had plans to increase the power to atleast 30-35. I had though, get a FFE, Intake, Porting Polishing, Boring, Turbo/NOS to bring it upto the 30-35 bhp figure.

I then got into XBHP, learned a few things. Got to know Joel and his developments. He said that a FFE and Porting would be sufficient enough and to expect 30-35 from a Pulsar is stupidity. Ok. So I got the funds and got both the things. I was one of the first in the country to do both. I kitted it up and the bike was ready. The immediate effect I felt was the bike pulled stronger and free-er(if there is such a word) than stock. I kept the bike at this stage for over a year and half. During that period, the CBR was launched and was 25bhp, I rode it expecting alot and I was extremely disappointed as my bike was suppose to run 23-24 bhp and it was(not felt) faster than the CBR. Yes it was a honda so it was more reliable. BUT mine was as reliable as a Bajaj could be. Most of my Tours have been after the mods. From the period of Feb 2010 to Aug 2010(stock period) I did only 2 long rides, one to Malshej and the other to Lonavala. Within the first month of the mods, I visited Malshej twice, Lonavala thrice, a couple of Silvassa runs. I had run the bike 5-6k before the mods and now I am at 25k+, the bike was extremely reliable, much more than most pulsars in my local area which were ripped as much as mine was.

Now comes to Performance. I got the bike for 82k, mods were under 15k, so even if I take a total of 1L + 10k for Pirelli Sport Demon tyres, it comes to a 1.1L figure. The CBR costs around 1.5-1.6L and it use to beat it silly. ONLY in top speeds did it fall behind. I could keep up with a Ninja till 120-125 and then the Ninja would go ahead. So on regular roads, I would have more Low-Mid end torque than the CBR and more Top end Power than the Ninja. As long as the speeds were below 120-130 I would lead in ANY case, not saying that I would be slow above 130. I have returned from my workplace to my home, 30 kms, in 15 minutes. On that night(1 am left and 1:15 arrived) I was mostly crouched and at 140+ kmph. My work place is on Western Express/Mumbai-Ahemdabad Highway and I stay in Marol. On a regular basis, I would reach there from my place in 20-25 minutes during rush hours(7-8 pm). Now I do not write these as my glorifications, but as a experience of having a Modded Lesser than Stock Reliable bike. Maybe the reliability was and has reduced but I wouldnt say that much. I think doing 25 kms at the redline and over 100 kms above 7-8k kms AND the bike does not give much work, is proof enough of reliability.

I again wont say that its completely reliable to mod a bike or car, no. Till Stage I the reliability is not reduced by much. By Stage I, I mean, a bigger bore(not too much of a oversized piston), calculated Porting of Inlet and Exhaust Valves and a well designed FFE. These usually give a 25-30% power increase and thats more than enough to compete with slightly more powerful bikes at much lesser costs. But what you must understand is this, the power ratings are useless unless you ride the bike. The CBR and Duke both have 25 bhp but the Duke is much quicker than the CBR because of various reasons, mainly the power is well spread. As is with a modded bike. I also forgot to mention but with the same kind of driving, i.e. 4k rpm shifting and 65-70 kmph top speed, I use to get a 30-32 kmpl regularly and after the mods 40 kmpl and I am not the only one. I would just like to say, modding a bike or even a car slightly and keeping a control over the hand/foot will not only give you a slightly faster or equally fast (as compared to a segment higher) bike but also economical bike.

P.S. These are my views of my Bike when it was a mini monster. Now there are alot more mods done and now its not suppose to be a daily ride(but I am using it as one) so I dont care much about reliability.

100% true, 100% agree, always purchase a bike that satisfies most of your requirements, so that there is no need of any modification.

^reliability and life expectancy are little bit different things. i hope you will agree.


no second hand bike can be restored to factory brand new condition, that will need more money than a new bike, coz you can only replace those parts which are already faulty, you can not replace those parts which are going to be kaput ....say 1000 kms down the line.

cost of all the parts of a bike is more than the cost of a new bike.

again 100% correct. are you reading my mind, or we are just like minded..

^^ and what about handling and braking abilities, and things like stability..etc etc..

i own a P150, and i was thinking of modifying it to make more power, but now, i have dropped the idea, coz by now i know that it does not have have the stability, handling, and braking prowess at speeds more than what it currently is capable of.

ofcourse, the above discussion is useless, if you just want a drap race winner.

Completely agree Dude. My 220 too has a similar setup as yours (head work + FFE). The new setup surely packs a punch and is quite reliable. The Mods were done by Joel at 10,000 KMs on the odo, and now at around 30K Kms, it is still running strong without any issues. After the Mods, I went on a number of long rides, and maintaining a speed of 120-130 Km/hr on highways for hours at a stretch is fun. Bike never showed any signs of stress even on such long tours.
Bottom line is I bought my 220 for 80 K, invested 20 K more on performance mods, and now I have a setup that gives very good performance and is able to keep me happy. And Yes, it does beat a CBR250R upto 120, however it is in top speed department where it bows out.

Here are my answers.

1 - Yes I know, but as I was a complete car guy, 18 at that time with abolutely no knowledge of bikes. This is my first bike and I learnt riding on it.

2 - Yes I know, I know, I really did want these but I decided NOT to get them as advised by joel. Also I have yet not met anyone who can successfully do these things, IF someone can, I would not mind trying.

3 - Yes, sorry for not clarifying that. I live in Mumbai and all my long rides originated from Mumbai.

4 - Ok, I wont argue with you on that. But what I see now a days, most people end up selling their bikes by 50k kms and what I wanted to say was that there was NO reduction in reliability, YET

5 - If you read my post carefully, I said, By both I meant, HIS Porting and HIS FFE. No Turbo/NOS or Boring or even a small Open Air Filter(again on advise of Joel)

6 - I agree that the CBR is shit, but then I was trying to show that a 25 bhp bike was not faster than a modded 220(segment lower).

7 - This here I would not like to respond to as it will not benifit anyones knowledge, this here is just personal and I do not appreciate it.

8 - Again, here I would like to state that ANYONE with Joel's Porting and FFE can do the same.

9 - Really sorry, that was a Typo, I meant Riding and not Driving, thank you for pointing that out.

10 - The bike could handle the power quite easily, with absolutely no problem. But I wanted more so I have done a Mono Suspension Mod. Now its much more agile and quick. Stability again I took into consideration and went ahead with the mod. The bike is stable at speeds of 150+ kmph. I will agree with you on brakes, this I still haven't tackled yet

I agree with you on the Drag Racer front, that is why I said, Stage I mods are really good if you want more power and intact reliability.

Well there are 2 sides to every story. Here Abhay has a happy modification story about his P220. The other side is shown in this thread:



So it could go either way, it is a gamble that you are taking with respect to overall reliability.

@MHG your ASC serviceability query will be amply answered in this thread.

@Prince: Life Expectancy is the distance the vehicle can go with just reasonable amounts spent for periodic maintenance. Reliability is the confidence that you can bet your life on your bike. I agree that both are totally different.

#4 can be quantified as the distance of your usual usage location from an authorized SVC. For example, the BAL SVC near Lal Chowk, Srinagar is just about 1000km away from the next one in the direction of Leh near Mandi, Himachal Pradesh (on the other side of Leh). In such a situation where authorized service is so far away, reliability is of upmost importance or a breakdown at the wrong place at the wrong time could be a matter of life and death.

After my recent Leh trip, I now know a person who owns a stunt modded P220 Fi in Lahaul, HP. The closest BAL SVC is ~250km from his place on the other side of Rohtang La. Closest Probiking SVC is over 500km away in Chandigarh. The only way to take care of your bike in such environment is to learn to do everything by yourself. Or else it is nothing but a deathtrap which nobody around has any competence or spares to fix *properly*! Believe me, in the smaller towns, the mechs flatly refuse to even touch reatively high-end bikes for even tightening a nut (personal experience)!

By contrast, for someone living in a city like Pune/Mumbai/Delhi/Bangalore etc., the worst that a breakdown could lead to is make the wallet lighter by a few thousand rupees, not become a threat to life in any imaginable situation.

Well here's my two rupees, i bought a 2nd hand R15 a year and a half back, for the purpose of performance modifications, by time I have finished with the bike , it would of cost me the same amount as a CBR250R, this amount will also include a repaint of the whole bike ( I dinked the tank a few days back), v2 swing arm, alloys, tyres (current set should be due for replacement soon), bi xenons and few other bits and pieces.

In it's current state, my ride is quicker (except top speed) than any other bike in it's price range (talking of stock brand new vs tuned 2nd hand), I was tempted to wait for the CBR, but I found the styling a little on the conservative side. So far it's not been cheap, but not really expensive either and i am happy with the gains that have been achieved, will take the bike as far as it can go without doing an engine swap or a turbo install. Why do all this, well there's not much options until you start paying over taxed prices for bigger bikes and small bikes a more fun for road use anyway, still I do want a 600cc bike in the next 2-3 years.

@ abhayshanu: there was nothing personal in it, and yes, thanks for replying .... well...politely.

but i still think you went a little overboard, that with a 10,000 rupees modification job, your P220 beats a 3.0 lakhs+ ninja right upto 130 kmph.

i would like to ask how many members think it is possible, coz according to my knowledge, post 90-100 kmph, ninja is in a territory of its own...and 0-90 also it is no slouch either.

other members plz suggest.