You mean to say, your P220 felt under powered compared to a wagon R? My friend any 200+ CC bike in India can give most hatchbacks a run for their money in outright acceleration. A P220 is almost 3 seconds faster than the wagonr to 60 Kmph almost 5 seconds faster to 100 Kmph and almost 1.5 seconds faster than the wagon-r to the quarter mile mark. So I could nt really understand the comparison. I drive a Swift (not the detuned 1.2L one, but the 11+sec 1.3 liter one) Yet I feel my Avenger more or less matches the swifty atleast till 70-80 Kmph, which is what most of the time one would be riding/driving it. Beyond that the swift is faster, but then the swift is way faster than the wagon r too and the P220 is faster than my avenger.

@TS

I feel one needs to define what reliability and life expectancy that people desire from the bike. Reliability to me means, fill it, shut it up, forget and ride. Regarding life expectancy, people here are talking about a 30K trouble free operation In my opinion its still a comparatively new bike at 30 K.

Another important thing to really understand is that a stock bike is tested extensively by the company, putting each and every part of it through rigorous test before launching it. Bikes are designed as a whole not individually. Each part is designed to match the power and speed of the bike.

There are of course factors of safety incorporated in every design aspect, which is what along with the quality of parts and fitments gives the bike reliability. Modding the engine to bump up the power means more stress on the braking, suspension chasis etc. How much have they been designed for?

Yes you can change all parts, but then you ll end up spending more than a new bike as sum of cost of all parts should be typically more than the cost of the bike. Now even if you are able to keep the cost down as compared to a new Honda, but with all your after market parts, your bike is no honda. And that matters to people who value reliability.

A bike fit to handle 25 bhp handling 22, would be less stressed out than a bike designed to handle 25 bhp and handling the same 25 bhp. Modding the bike for increased performance we are eating into this buffer, this Factor of safety.

What about the quality of parts? Well one can argue you get equally or better part quality in the market, but what about workmanship. After all that is a very important aspect of it. A simple human error by your mechanic can spoil your experience completely. In case of a new bike you have the buffer of warranty.

IMO anyone who is modding out his bike should realise, he is doing away with his reliability in a big way. There is absolutely no way he is going to figure out the amount of stress he is subjecting to the non modded parts of his bike and the over all effect it will have. I feel he should be mentally prepared to spend enough time and money on sorting out issues that might crop up or be willing to write away the cost of his bike as a bad investment in case things go wrong.

That said tomorrow may be I ll end up modding my Avenger to my desire may be at 60-75 K kms. But that would be done with full understanding that it might cause my bike to go kaput. That however would not be done with a hunger for more power but because being an engineer I like getting my hands dirty. Now I satiate that hunger by working on much larger engines. Tomorrow when I may no longer work on them, I ll need something to keep my hands busy The Avy might come to good use then.

Please read my post again, I said that I always felt 21 bhp was very less. I never said that it was, I only felt that 21 bhp was less, the number/bhp 21. Just the number, compared to a commuter WagonR having a bigger 64 number/bhp. Yes at that time I did not think that power to weight ratio would matter. All I saw was BHP. So to see or even buy a 21 bhp VEHICLE was a laughing matter for me. I use to think buying a R1/Gixxer/Hayabusa/CBR100RR etc would be the only bikes I would even consider buying as they would atleast have 150-200 bhp. They should be good everyday bikes. It was after I discovered what biking truely was, that I now understand that bikes are faster due to lower weight. Thus improving upon Power-Weight Ratio.

The first part in bold is exactly the point I comented on. Wagon r having a higher bhp cannot be compared to P220.
Had you mentioned the second bold part I would not have commented at all.

Hehe...I don't know what to say You know I always stand neutral & towards what is right when I talk, may be due to that

Oh!!! no no, I was not talking about the distance when I meant by usage pattern; let me illustrate...
day 1 - 400 Km
day 2 - 0 Km
day 3 - given to friend (God knows how he rides) - 50 Km
day 4 - day 10 - 0 Km
day 11 - 1 Km
day 12 - 0.5 Km
day 13 - 300 Km
day 14 - day 20 - given to friend
day 21 - day 35 - 0 Km
day 36 - 10 Km (say this fellow doesn't follow our standard 30 sec idling or didn't even start the vehicle in these days)

Take another case
day 1 - 10 Km
day 2 - 10 Km
day 3 - 10 Km
day 4 - 15 Km
day 5 - 10 Km
...
day 25 - 10 Km
Now this seems to be sedate, say this guy doesn't follow our std 30 sec idling + everytime he rides, he rides like there's no tomorrow

So this is why it cannot be quantified as it depends on who & how they use. Partly these covers point #3, but that's when riding, but this is what I meant by usage pattern.

3&4: For the purpose of this discussion, we can assume a neutral safe approach - 30s idling everyday morning, safe/sedate riding in max torque zone and occasional ripping; and say around 1 or 2 highway trips per month which is pretty much what many people do.

5. Too human and hence easily removable from consideration

Thanks for the link. Wonderful read

Let me rephrase the ASC question. How hassle-free is it to get your bike serviced by the nearest ASC, WHEREVER you are ?

When you go on long distance tours, do you give your bike to an ASC at a pit-stop on the way ? Even if you have no prior experience with that ASC ? And at the same time be sure that the bike can come out intact (assuming you know how you have ridden your bike) ?

I'm out of this discussion for good

This is India, no matter its Ducati or TVS, you're bound to get a pathetic customer service UNLESS you've a good rapport over the ASC's, know the MD or manager or someone in the higher level personally.

Well that's the reason I've a bike that has one of the longest service interval of 6K km

Yes, if it's absolutely required; I stay with them through the job though. Nothing more is important than fixing the vehicle to perfect that gives peace of mind

Simply go ahead with a new bike, from a Manufacturer who knows his business well., in India it should be Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki.

Dont go for modds, coz the probability for you to be a Happy man is 100% with a new bike and 0.00.....% with a locally modded bike. In India its very hard to find a tuner who knows what he is doing, amongst the common imposters. Trust me, I had to learn this after spending a good amount of time, energy and currency.

+1 & well said; I'd slightly say, carry on the mod ONLY IF you know what you're doing; even better option is...LEARN & carry out the modification yourself. That way, one knows what to do, what to carry & the risks associated when taking out a modded bike on long tour.

Thanks for all the inputs guys! I learnt a lot that I can keep in mind during my upgrade

A very good idea there. Thanks for the patience with all my crazy questions BTW...

Thread is over,but my doubts are still there.I understood that without proper knowledge of engines,going for performance mods is just stupid.And I am happy that I learned a lot from here.Suppose you have a budget of 50-70k.Being an enthusiast what bike would you buy?
Looking at new bikes we can get many 100,125,even a few 150 cc's.But if considering second hand ones,we can get some performance machines,like pulsar 220,rtr,karizhma etc.Getting a second hand bike,restoring it to stock will be cheap,right?Especially in case of pulsar.

Another query,buying a second hand pulsar 220 vs second hand apache,what would be ideal?Spares for 220 are dirt cheap,one does n't need to check the condition of engine as new one cost only 2800(spares).Don't know much about spares of apache,considering the bullet proof nature of engine one need not consider engine over haul?

One more question,suppose a second hand 220 cost 50k.Engine in real bad condition,rest all good.So did an engine rebuild.Cost 60k max.By engine overhaul will the engine perform as good as stock?I mean same performance and mileage?

Buying a new bike's advantages:

1. New feel, look, etc.
2. Reliability compared to a modified bike,
3. Noise will be lesser, (merit and demerit both)
4. Better handling (most of the times)

Modding an older bike's advantages:

1. It beats the power to weight ratio's, of most of the bikes when modified well enough, Torque curve is very good in such bikes,

2. Its an old bike, so no one will scratch it. You can park it at most places without worrying... Its like getting a new bike only, speaking performance wise.

3. Cost advantages, (huge, believe me.)

4. Constant Mileage, (won't drop below 38 no matter how I ride)

5. Noise is a safety essential plus a crowd attraction, (merit and demerit both)

6. People who really love their bikes will get to keep the same one, on and on. In a new bike, who knows if you'll like the change or not?

7. As a biker, you see your machine opened up while its being modified. You get knowledge... Remember, big money doesn't make thou a biker, oil-dirty hands do a bit though.


If I would've sold my Pulsar 180 for Rs. 35,000 and got myself a new P200 NS, by spending about Rs. 60,000 more, I would've got the power to beat my friend's Karizma ZMR... Yes! Definitely.

..Oh wait, Sorry I forgot... I just did that this Sunday, leading my modded P208 to a faster 0-60 kmph drag launch than a ZMR. (It was on an empty road, just upto 60 kmph, with full gears, so it was safe I ensured...)