General Biking Discussion Approved.

Although this topic is being approved, but it would be locked at the first instance of a 'war'. Please pour in some valuable comments and discuss with a sane mind.

Bajaj's gets its footing from their old JV with Kawasaki.

Looks like Kawasaki shared everything with them, EXCEPT their metallurgy.

The metallurgy used by Bajaj is still a few light years behind what we see on the Japs, and this is something that you can get right only with trial and error over and extended period of time. Something which the Japs have been doing for over 5 decades now.

Next, the Japs (Note: Not reffering to Honda in particular as the 'big 4' collectively are excellent in their own right!) have had 5 decades of perfecting their products behind them. Most of their current crop of engines that we see in India have been around since the 70's and 80's which are perfected over time. On the other hand Bajaj is just about a decade old, so it will not be any time soon that we'd be seeing the finesse of a Jap product from our Indian stables any time soon. But, these guys certainly are making improvements in leaps and bounds. This is not only for Bajaj, but its counterpart and one of the biggest competition TVS.

EDIT: The difference in quality, especially in the vibrations department is very very clearly visible if you compare the same version of Bajaj/TVS products over a period in time. Eg: Compare the Pulsar 180 Classic and todays Pulsar 180 the difference in refinement is clearly evident. Same goes for the Apache 150 Vs today's Apache RTR 160 Refresh.

^^Rightly said Praful.

What is worth noticing is that over time and various mutations on the same engine, Bajaj has started learning the various nuances. I had an opportunity to sample the new 150 and the 180 and I was blown away by the smoothness. Perhaps, this trial and error will allow Bajaj R&D to gradually reach the levels of other international manufacturers.

However, there is something the Bajaj needs to do to ensure that they learn faster. Instead of pilot market releases and gradual improvements, Bajaj needs to ensure that these lessons are acquired in the heat of competition.
Racing was in the blood of most international manufacturers and hence this extremely fast learning process for all of them.

Bajaj needs to start entering races at local level to start evolving faster.

I can vouch for this! Although, I haven't ridden the newest lot of P180s, but the difference between the Classic 180 and the 200 DTS-i is a HELL of a lot - not only in the vibration department, but also overall.

This is exactly even I get the vibes too from Bajaj, though they are learning. Their pace is extremely slow, given today's fast paced development's these guys are at a snail's pace.

These guys really need to pull up their socks and start moving faster.

Entering racing is an good idea, in the closed environment of a circuit they can get pretty good idea of how much they lag behind say TVS.

@Aryan: Try out the newer P180's, it will blow you away more than the P200 too.

very well said praful & makes perfect sense..!!
but just a question out of curiosity, if some company(ies) already have refined engines. Do we have the situation where we have to start from scratch to reach the level of other brands refinement. I mean, simply "Why re-inventing wheels".
I can understand the two wheeler market is growing on a very slow pace in India, but is it just because of the 'time taken' in bringing an engine upto the mark or due to the rush made in releasing a product. R&D is extremely essential, but why the feedbacks are derived from people who put their hard earned money in buying them. Why a consumer has to be acted as a tester..?

P.S. please dont criticize me for the above, rather correct me..!

Bajaj are following what Juran put up in the early 1950's: that Quality is 'fitness for use'. And in the modern world, this 'fitness for use' is never divorced from the economic element. They target a certain price bracket and reverse engineer their product to fit in there. The 'pilot release', as Niranjan rightly points out, is a part of that. Let the users do the Pareto analysis, sort out the 'vital few from the trivial many', and then the company will do the needful. That our country is governed on this principle affirms its veracity.

Modern engines are primarily about metallurgy and inter-component clearances. And an aspect like vibration is not just a left-over problem from engine development. The entire bike is a rigid amalgamation of different components in different materiels. Their design and location also has its influence. The target for most machine designers is to spread the natural frequencies of various components across as wide a spectrum as possible. Harmonics need to be avoided. This again requires lots of research and all that money and effort improves just upon something as un-quantifiable as 'vibration and harshness'. Prudence in spending , my dear Jeeves. And that too for a product segment in which Enfields and Harley's sell because they 'vibrate' and so have character.

The only thing that probably forces manufacturers towards improving refinement is the inevitable 'feeling' that more refinement equates with better reliability. A vehicle that runs smoother feels better built and appears to last longer. And the first point of quality perception of a user is this 'feel'. So, as Praful says, Bajaj are catching up albeit slowly, but they will have to as this 'quality of first contact' is vital to selling.

I think any kind of refinement takes a lot of time due to testing and iterative improvements. The thing is it can be sped up to some extent by entering into races, but it won't bring you up to the levels of the old ones in the market that much faster. It's all about how well do the parts fit together. That's what causes a lot of the lack of refinement, the manufacturing processes are simply not yet up to the same mark as what the Japanese have achieved. TVS and Bajaj will get there in due time, but for now we'll be left with at least somewhat vibrating engines.

And companies here do take feedback into consideration when it comes to their products. It's just that the great majority doesn't care, they want a bike that takes them from A to B with the least possible fuel spent. The ones that care for power and refinement don't control the market like for example in Europe where bikes are not a means of commuting, but a way of life or a style statement.

Just as an aside, not all Honda engines are extremely refined, I wouldn't call the Shine/Stunner engine refined. My 220DTSi feels more refined than a Shine at high RPM. Note, I'm also not out to start a war here, just that these are my experiences.

Anyway, I do think Bajaj is making progress. The 220s are a bit vibey, but it's not very bad, and it's actually a pleasure to drive at about 4k rpm in the city

I think Honda has more refinement compared to Bajaj here in India, is because of the fact that Honda is 're-using' the already developed, tested, implemented & reviewed product/engine around the globe. Bajaj is on an on-going stage yet, so will take time to reach that level. But I would like to appreciate is that Bajaj is doing something of their 'own', unlike sharing some resource from someone else & making the product looks perfect.

edit : @Old_Fox sir am reading your lines for third time now, just brilliantly framed down..

Thanks rachit.

Just one point: if we all wanted to do everything on our 'own', we'd need a Newton and an Einstein in every age and in every industry. Nothing wrong in using the proven. The genius lies in being able to further build upon it. Like the 'Jap Four's' refinement comes at a premium for a country like ours. Thats what Bajaj can improve upon...give the same refinement without the attached premium.

A part of the reason for "re-inventing the wheel" is because knowledge is not shared as commonly as it should be if there is business interest underlining the captive knowledge. If I am developing and doing research on something, and if my neighbour (who might be my competitor) is also researching on the same subject, then of course we would not share the R&D results. I would rather keep my results to myself and apply that knowledge in further my business interests.

Same holds good with all the 5 decades of research gone into the Honda's, Kawa's and Zuki labs. They would never share their findings with Bajaj or TVS at any cost. So Bajaj and TVS will have to do that research on their own and figure out how to refine their products.

Entering the races is one way they could speed up their R&D processes, but they are still a long way behind and have a lot of catching up to do.

Prajwal

When comparing so called 'BIG' japs to Bajaj one should remember that Japs have been in business for better part of the century where as Bajaj started tinkering merely 15 years ago. Also a point of fact is Bajaj started with scooters and three wheelers and not bikes. Since then they have made considerable improvements. Starting with the 4s champion they moved on to caliber boxer etc.then there is one word "ELIMINATOR". Each better than the last (Although the improvements remained marginal). It should also be remembered that it was bajaj who brought "4 stroke pro biking" to the masses. Bajaj gave indian customers things like disc brakes as standard, digi consoles and led tail lamps. Not taking away anything from the Japs, with all the technology at their disposal, for the past decade their contribution to Indian biking has been less than promising. Yes japs could have built a far superior bike to the Pulsar. However the fact remains that they did not.

Now to answer your direct question.

1.Bajaj R&d, while making headway, is also very VERY stubborn. For example, when asked why there are not any changes to the basic chassis or suspension in pulsars, a very esteemed engineer from Bajaj replied that "It was a proven set up. why do you want to change it?".

2. Cost factor: We do get Bajaj bikes cheaper than any other company. The cheaper the cost, the cheaper the internal quality of the engine.Also this affects the quality of Plastic and fastening parts.

3. Lack of experience: As many of the other people have pointed out (Including my good friend Mr. Tripathy) Bajaj lacks the metallurgical skills to create a silent engine. It also goes in to making the clutch smoother and making the internals stick together longer than 10,000 kms under actual road conditions.

4. Leaner running bikes: Bajaj bikes are generally very lean running which affects the life of the engine considerably.

Bajaj has improved its quality, at least for the Pulsar range of bikes, over the last decade. However they still have a long way to go. As Mr. Kashyap pointed out in the previous post, Bajaj's R&d could benefit from the racing scene, by their own admission, Bajaj's primary focus is on efficiency rather than speed. When it comes to quality Bajaj needs to work on it from every aspect down to their owner's manuals. It is actually disheartening to know that Bajaj is thinking about drawing the line at 250 cc singles as they will only be importing bigger bikes.

My comments below are mere speculation. Just curious.

Given that Extreme/Hunk is basically using the same engine as Unicorn, they are a tad more powerful at the same time a tad more harsher than Uni.

Also given that Bajaj especially the Pulsar family traditionally are a tad more powerful than their competition and also a tad more harsher.

Would detuning the bikes for lesser power make it more refine?

Agreed about the need to re-invent the wheel Prajwal. Even though most of the stuff needed for meeting with the ' minimum expected parameters' like 'refinement' are nothing out of the world. These are motorcycles, not top secret defence projects. Things like anti-judder springs in clutches, silent sprag clutches for starter motors, counterbalancers machined to more exacting standards etc, things that do improve refinement being discussed here, are there for the taking. Bajaj probably knows what needs to be done but it usually boils down to their strategic priorities. Any increase, whether in perceived or quantifiable quality, usually carries the burden of increased costs. And low pricing is one of the major winning factors for Bajaj, an advantage they wouldn't want to loose. They already have a product which is within the 'acceptability' envelope. Any further move towards bettering that normally would need a disproportionate share of finances and effort. But then again, I am treading the quicksilver realm of conjecture here.

Agree wholeheartedly about the 'racing' impetus to development too. Wars and races (which is also a kind of 'war') have given us the greatest and quickest developments industrially.

Not necessarily. De-tuning does lower the stresses but reciprocating engines will have to 'reciprocate', things go up and down, starting and stopping suddenly in doing that while fuel-laden compressed air keeps exploding every once in a while and so the scope for harshness will remain. Tighter tolerances, better metallurgy for consistent thermal and physical properties, colligated designing that integrates each part with respect to the others throughout the usable life of the product, are some of the things needed here.