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Carb swap(Rather experiment)

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  • Carb swap(Rather experiment)

    Hi all,
    Since the day I got my bike 2 and a half years ago I simply had the urge to fiddle with my bike and have tried many &sometimes extremely stupid things like fitting an HPI filter reversed in the filter cap of the airbox to avoid removing/cutting it.Recently I again got the urge to fiddle and this time my target area was the carburettor.I did read a lot about the madness of performance levels achieved on replacing CV carbs with flat-slide and D-slide carbs.Now those carbs cost upwards of 20 grand(including throttle cable,intake flange and jets).Being a student I obviously cannot get my hands on them right now so I did some more research and was overjoyed to find that VM carbs from the older bikes also have a similar flow control mechanism in comparision with the flat-slide and D-slide carbs.So I got myself a similar carb for my RTR180.The RTR 180 has a Mikuni bs-29 carb and the nearest size on the readily available VM carb is of the Bullet standard 500 which has a vm28.Using up savings from two months pocket money I got a new carb for Rs.1500 from a local store and I installed it on my bike directly by filing the stopper on the end of the throttle-cable to a size small enough to pass through the top-cap of the carb.Now obviously the carb was jetted for a 500 and here I was trying to run it on a 180 without re-jetting it.The results were highly amusing with lots of misfires and spluttering.I did end up damaging a new spark plug due to the overly rich mixture.So next thing I did was consult a bulleteer from Indie thumpers who is quite a good tuner and has set-up several bikes for races (Including an apache).He did seem highly amused by my fiddling but was courteous and suggested that I try different set-ups by downsizing the main and pilot-jets.I tried the following jets
    Pilot:25,22.5,21,20(Stock jet from the bs29)
    Main:125(Stock from BS29).115,110,100,95,90
    But all of them ran the bike rich I had also installed the needle in the lowest possible configuration which only gave a minor nudge to the A.F ratio in the right direction.I got impatient and consulted him again.He told me that the smaller diameter of the carb was probably the culprit.I did not want to give up so easily and got the carb overbored by 1mm at a local lathe.Then I installed the carb again.The fuelling was closer to ideal this time(Main jet 125& pilot jet 20) but a new problem has emerged,after the engine has run for some time it begins to auto-accelerate.I suspected a leak in the intake manifold but did not find any upon inspection. I then took off the filter and saw the plunger-cum-throttle piston lift automatically due to the flow of air.I am now considering a stiffer throttle spring but would also like to hear from you all as to what else to try to get the set-up right.
    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Vignesh vnktrmn; 06-05-2012, 01:02 AM.

  • #2
    Query Approved
    Advice is a form of nostalgia.
    Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

    Antz Travelz!! | South India Exploration Ride | Leh Triplog (Work in progress)

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    • #3
      Nice experiment there
      seems like stiffer spring will do the job.
      Btw, under most conditions (say performance upgrades) there's no need of carb change, re-jetting does the Job. Anyways, any changes in performance, throttle response, mileage etc?
      http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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      • #4
        There is a maddening increase in the sub-6000rpm throttle response.She wheelspins wildly while taking off from standstill.The top-end performance does get slightly reduced as the valve timing has not been changed,I cannot afford to make custom cams yet plus I don't have that much experience working with cams.The fuel consumption does jump up by almost 10% with mileage coming down to 31KPL from the 42kpl it used to return earlier.I did go for a rejet with the earlier CV carb when using a pipercross free flow filter.The main reason I went for the carb was because I had ridden a bike prepared for racing & I absolutely loved the throttle response and I did make the mistake of installing its flat-slide carb on my bike for a brief time(The bike's owner was really generous to let me have the carb for a day since he already felt bad for denying to lend me the race bike for a day).I began to lust for that carb afterwards but couldn't get my hands on one .Hence I got the next closest thing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Vignesh vnktrmn View Post
          There is a maddening increase in the sub-6000rpm throttle response.She wheelspins wildly while taking off from standstill.The top-end performance does get slightly reduced as the valve timing has not been changed,I cannot afford to make custom cams yet plus I don't have that much experience working with cams.The fuel consumption does jump up by almost 10% with mileage coming down to 31KPL from the 42kpl it used to return earlier.I did go for a rejet with the earlier CV carb when using a pipercross free flow filter.The main reason I went for the carb was because I had ridden a bike prepared for racing & I absolutely loved the throttle response and I did make the mistake of installing its flat-slide carb on my bike for a brief time(The bike's owner was really generous to let me have the carb for a day since he already felt bad for denying to lend me the race bike for a day).I began to lust for that carb afterwards but couldn't get my hands on one .Hence I got the next closest thing.
          wheel spins? amazing..
          Btw, how you can say top-end suffered because of valve timings and not because of something else form carb? (being curious )
          http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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          • #6
            swapping carb? eh? why?

            carb is used for feeding the engine with air fuel mixture! different carbs have diff AF configuration,why tampering with a fine bike man?
            Speak Less,Speak Wise!

            Sarcasm is my automatic response to stupidity.

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            • #7
              The top end of the bike was reduced even when I had tried the borrowed flat-slide carb(Not as much as the current vm carb)I had asked the guy who made up an apache for racing and he told me that the angle of overlap of the valves played a role in the way the intake pulse is generated.The vm carb does not atomise fuel at higher revs as well as the cv carb with the current setup.Also I need to make a custom intake manifold with the shortest length possible to increase the top end with the vm28 carb.
              Haxor,I did make the blunder of riding an apache fitted with a flat-slide carb and I tell you the fine bike will go insane& I consider that behaviour to be an increase of the bike's finesse.and yes the carb does supply A/F mixture to the engine but different types of carbs have different natures while supplying the mixture.By that I mean the nature of throttle response generated does depend on the type of carb.Most two-stroke bikes came stock with VM carbs and this,other than the engine was also a small but significant factor in the very direct throttle response of two-strokes.When you quickly whack the throttle with a vm carb as compared to a CV(Stock one on the apache) carb, the RPM's climb much faster when having a vm carb than on the cv carb.
              Last edited by Vignesh vnktrmn; 06-08-2012, 12:41 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Vignesh vnktrmn View Post
                the angle of overlap of the valves played a role in the way the intake pulse is generated.The vm carb does not atomise fuel at higher revs as well as the cv carb with the current setup.Also I need to make a custom intake manifold with the shortest length possible to increase the top end with the vm28 carb
                hmm.. Now i understand. Thanks for explanation. :-)
                http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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                • #9
                  Planning to make and install a free flow end-can for the bike now as the bike does not seem very happy with the current stock exhaust(The sudden throttle whack makes the engine blubber slightly).Does anyone know of a place where I can source the bent-pipe from header to end-can for cheap.Tried kurla market but did not find any for the RTR 180 altough the pipes for RTR 160 were available.I want to keep the OEm as is so that I can go back to it if need arises.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vignesh vnktrmn View Post
                    Planning to make and install a free flow end-can for the bike now as the bike does not seem very happy with the current stock exhaust(The sudden throttle whack makes the engine blubber slightly).Does anyone know of a place where I can source the bent-pipe from header to end-can for cheap.Tried kurla market but did not find any for the RTR 180 altough the pipes for RTR 160 were available.I want to keep the OEm as is so that I can go back to it if need arises.
                    buy yourself a free flow exhaust. Dont go for cheap pipe from 'chor bazaar' those cheap things can burn your exhaust valve.
                    http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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                    • #11
                      I am making the end can myself.And the bent pipe I am looking for is the one from the original exhaust so that the gases can pass from the head to the end-can.I do not want to cut the original system incase I want to revert back.Honda cbf you rightly said the cheap ones from chor bazaar are useless & I have never considered using them.Only tried to locate used original parts there.The SVC's scrap old/replaced/damaged in accident/changed under warranty parts which mostly end up in the Kurla market(Not the night wala chor bazaar).Most of the exhausts only have rust or damaged end-cans with intact bent pipes.and I went hoping to find used one for the RTR180.I have also asked the SVC manager(befriended him)to notify me if someone replaces their RTR180's exhaust.Saw four to five RTR160 exhausts lying there which had badly damaged end cans but almost intact bent-pipes.Unfortunately they are a different size and are not suited for the RTR180.And lastly the main reason for making the exhaust is to 'cure the itch'.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vignesh vnktrmn View Post
                        I am making the end can myself.And the bent pipe I am looking for is the one from the original exhaust so that the gases can pass from the head to the end-can............
                        .......
                        And lastly the main reason for making the exhaust is to 'cure the itch'.

                        Nice experiments there..
                        keep up the good work, itch-iey guy
                        http://www.facebook.com/ateesh.kumar

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                        • #13
                          Am now getting close to a good setup with size 25 pilot jet and 125 main jet and lots of patient tuning adjustments.Now the real nature of the carb is coming out.Top-end performance has improved significantly and the bike continues to stomp ahead even after my dreaded 110kph mark where the bike used to start feeling stressed(I gained 16 KG.s after the accident and now weigh 86KG.s) I had touched 145(speedo indicated) with the higher compression I had earlier(Had shaved the top of the engine head and deepened the valve pockets) but had to revert to stock after blowing the gasket twice(SVC guys had set the Idle at 1400 rpm whereas I had set it at 3000 RPM as a precaution to adulteration in fuel which causes preignition at lower RPM's owing to higher compression).Will start fabricating the FFe after I get the bent pipe.

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                          • #14
                            Couldn't manage to source the bent pipe back to syock carb for now.A friend took my exhaust for his FZ sounds nice.
                            अपने दोस्तों, परिवार और परिचित लोगों से शेयर करना और कनेक्ट करना शुरू करने के लिए Facebook में लॉग इन करें.

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                            • #15
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