Getting 180cc kit for fazer from joel .... or should i ?

abhiwar replied

09-08-2012, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Sunir-Dust View Post

Hi guys ,

I have a 4-5 month old fazer , have clocked 8k or so kms on it .
Planning to put 180cc joel's kit for it , please guide me , i am a noob in bike mods

I had a few questions :

will the kit effect the reliability of my bike?

Can it cause any MAJOR issues like the engine seizing up ?

planning to go for a long long ride (leh) soon , will this cause any issues during the trip?

Lastly , should a noob like me go for the kit ?

I am buying this kit mainly to increase mialge figures , which he (joel) assured will increase by 8-10% ,
Please guide me about this guys ,
Thank you all very much for your help ! I appreciate it much !

On my last ride i saw 3-4 Fz's parked @ army camp site because bike's were not able to cope up with high altitude (i.e less O2 ) so ...

1> Before doing any mod's i will suggest know your machine first and then go ahead with mod's .

2> If you are riding experience is only 8-10k i will suggest you roam around local places get some experience on different types of highway's and then
proceed with Leh trip .
Leave a comment:
chinmayakar replied

09-08-2012, 03:10 AM
When I say modified setup is reliable, all I mean is in simple layman terms, I do not have issues from the setup not only in my day to day usage but also during the long tours. I never had to spend anything more than the regular servicing. We do long tours, and constantly ride at 120-130 speeds without issues for hours at stretch.

After the Mods, I rip my engine more often, almost always, and I did not face any breakdown, or any extra expenditure apart from regular servicing.

While in the stock setup, the engine felt more restricted and was not free revving.

Bottomline is even though I am not using factory setup, I did not face any breakdowns, any extra maintenance Cost over a stock setup.

But, the issues with stock setup is resolved with the MOD. This clearly means, that the man who is doing the MODs knows what he is doing. Now I am not trying to take anyone's side, but I have no issues is acknowledging the fact that the MODS have only made my ride much better, and has managed to keep my pocket as light as with stock setup.

Now, its upto you guys if you want to accept it or not and theres nothing anyone can do to change that.
Leave a comment:
vibbs replied

09-08-2012, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by HarishK View Post

You like it or not, everything goes on by Trail and Error here. I was supplied with a 165CC block and now after importing and selling these stuff myself I understood that the block is from a different manufacturer, piston from other, ring set from another, which literally have no connection between them. This shows the level of accuracy. Again branded factories do the same but they know what they do and what they need, to the best of its accuracy. You know my friend there are a range of quality differentiation with these after market parts and the most costliest block for Yamaha LC is called Malossi kit gd-a is promised to perform on par to stock and not any better. Modds are 50-50 either works brilliantly or nails a coffin.

@ Harish I had said I wont coment on this thread again, but seeing your post I needed to coment.
You have nailed the point on head. Absolutely spot on, I can relate to it very well. I m employed in a profession where in day in day out I operate and maintain engines, not small ones of 200 cc and all but huge ones producing as much as 24000 Bhp. And when I overhaul a main engine and we set out to sail I cant rely on the trial and error method. Each and every stock part is tried and tested numerous times for things as small as their harmonics by the manufacturers. You simply cant replace a stock part with one from some other manufacturer and hope it will perform better. I know what it means to be reliable.

Stock products are tested for many thousands of kilometers ripped at all stages before being passed on to the production stages. The level of testing that goes into the design of a finished product is something we cant match unless we have our own set ups with all those sophisticated instruments and equipments. I really dont understand what people mean when they say their modified machine is as reliable or more than a stock one. May be they are assuming reliability for something else.
Leave a comment:
HarishK replied

09-08-2012, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by chinmayakar View Post

Dude, I read your post completely, and I do not doubt your knowledge in this regards. And if you do not believe Moded Engines can have equal or greater reliability than a stock engine, then I guess its just a thing of believing in something. Even though I do not work in Motorcycle plant or a Mechanical Engineer, but being an Engineering Grad, I too am aware of tolerances and all those stuff.

However, the point here is, there are many more like me who have got their bikes moded, and are completely happy with the setup.

And I can say reliability is not compromised at all. Infact, I feel reliability has improved over the Factory setup, with Engine breathing fine now. Joel has his way of explaining Technical things, and the way he made me understand what he does, it cleared a lot of doubts.

I wonder how claims are done about reliability with a locally modified setup comparing to a Factory design. Do we have such equipped machinery to check every bit of the design flow.

Like for instance,

After the modds done, lets say a sprocket change is done, do we know what is the transmission loss incurred on the final gear ratio? or the resonance interval from the exhaust? or the inflow/outflow ratio w.r.t to the valve timings and head porting done ? do the workstations that do the performance tuning here in India have such machinery capable of testing the modifications right at every level as done in factories like Yamaha, Honda? Approximations can be done but what about the real time readings?

You like it or not, everything goes on by Trail and Error here. I was supplied with a 165CC block and now after importing and selling these stuff myself I understood that the block is from a different manufacturer, piston from other, ring set from another, which literally have no connection between them. This shows the level of accuracy. Again branded factories do the same but they know what they do and what they need, to the best of its accuracy. You know my friend there are a range of quality differentiation with these after market parts and the most costliest block for Yamaha LC is called Malossi kit gd-a is promised to perform on par to stock and not any better. Modds are 50-50 either works brilliantly or nails a coffin.

As a Kind request pls do not post comments stating that my XYZ modds have proved reliable than stock. We have many cheap alternates/duplicates for almost all products that we use, but when it comes to an automobile, Reliability is one factor why people still stick with reputed branded factories.

PS: I mostly mean Yamaha, Honda and equivalents as reputed branded factories. No offense to anyone/thing.

Last edited by HarishK; 09-08-2012, 01:33 AM.
Leave a comment:
chinmayakar replied

09-08-2012, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by vibbs View Post

^^ Chinmaykar dude, I request you to please read my post again, and, I m not assuming anything here. I am an engineer myself and a practising mechanical engineer who gets his hands dirty doing the dirty stuff. So please be rest assured, that I know what I m talking.

I may not be directly involved with the motorcylce industry but I am pretty much aware of manufacturing processes, limits, tolerances etc. It will be very hard for me to believe that the reliability of a machine does not take a hit once you modify it out of the factory settings. As I said, it is a sum of all parts, you will never have a stock reliability in a modded bike unless,
1. you have upgraded all the parts for increased load
2. The upgraded parts are of same or better quality as the stock parts.

Again, I dont mean that all modded bikes will go up bonkers in the first instant. But as I said before, its the factor of safety one is playing with. As long as one is aware of the limits, it is good.

Regarding experience speaking, I guess one of the first posters here was one who had experienced it himself. Anyways I ll leave that out of discussion as I m not pointing to Joel or his workmanship here. Tomorrow I may modd my bike, but that will be in full knowledge that I cant expect stock reliability out of it.

And reliability for me is not 10K kms.

I would again reitrate, anybody may get his bike modded but dont expect stock reliability especially in case of major mods , but this does NOT mean your bike WILL be worse than it was before.

All the best. Know what you are doing to your bike and how it affects the other parts and be prepared to take any issues in your stride. Making an informed decision always helps later on.

Anyways I ve said what I had to and will not post further here as I m just going round and round on the same things. These things have been discussed to death already in the forum...
Cheers.

Dude, I read your post completely, and I do not doubt your knowledge in this regards. And if you do not believe Moded Engines can have equal or greater reliability than a stock engine, then I guess its just a thing of believing in something. Even though I do not work in Motorcycle plant or a Mechanical Engineer, but being an Engineering Grad, I too am aware of tolerances and all those stuff.

However, the point here is, there are many more like me who have got their bikes moded, and are completely happy with the setup.

And I can say reliability is not compromised at all. Infact, I feel reliability has improved over the Factory setup, with Engine breathing fine now. Joel has his way of explaining Technical things, and the way he made me understand what he does, it cleared a lot of doubts.
Leave a comment:
HarishK replied

09-08-2012, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by mid View Post

Manufacturers are always forced to compromise on potential(performance and efficiency) to meet today's stricter emission norms and user friendliness. For example the new cbr150r has to incorporate newer catcon resulting in 1 bhp dip and 1 kg bump. Even a performance tuned FFE for Fz can do wonders by boosting:- power, engine life (lessens back pressure and there by limiting exhaust gases entering the combustion chamber resulting less carbon deposits there), FE & better weight-power ratio!
And yes mods has to be taken care of.

Bravo, how did you discover this?
Leave a comment:
jonahmano replied

09-08-2012, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Sunir-Dust View Post

Thank you for all the replies !

I am still confused weather to get it or no
mixed comments are there , so confused even more
Also , keeping in mind that my knowledge about bikes is fairly low , i think i shouldnt try all these things with it , maybe after i learn some more about bikes i could give it a though .. Or do you all think that this is the only way i will learn more about bikes-by experimenting ....

Just one more question ,
Can it give me really major issue like an engine seize ? or thats not possible ?
Cause im pretty scared of that

Again , thank you for all the replies , i appreciate it much !

Hey man, it doesn't matter how much you know about the bike. Even if you know, are you going to open the engine yourself.

The only thing you need to know is that if you know to ride the bike properly.

No one can surpass the original is a classic sentence but there are times when the original is surpassed. If you keep guessing why Yamaha didn't provide you 180cc instead of 153 cc then you will surely know when you get the bill of the upgrade and if a 180cc bike would go nearly 95k then the sales would have been down.

Now coming to the point of joelling. As far as reading the xbhp and outside extensively, I found that his products are valued and reliable. Take it from the exhaust to bore kits there are very less complaints seen and even that too because of the mistakes of other mechanics.

If you are near to Bangalore then I don't think you have to stop getting bewildered and start the project. I don't think you will lose anything by joelling. Engine can cease on stock bikes if it is manufacturing defect or the riding style. If you have ridden the bike very well during the run-in period and if your mileage is right and the babe is revving at right speed then you are ready to upgrade with your eyes closed.

If your bike is already in problem and then you want to get joelled it then I think you need to speak him frankly about that.

If you have budget then fix the date and start the power.

The main reason to joel my bike is because I want to keep up with p200s and the dukes during the tours. Had very hard time last time. I hope i can revv freely when I get my bike joelled with 180cc big bore kit.

As shv told you many things, I just want to say talk to your heart and do don't get confused. Your less knowledge about bikes can't be an excuse for not going for the upgrades.

Don't worry about negative responses, Joel's products are neither Chinese or Indonesian so no need to worry about the product.
Leave a comment:
vibbs replied

09-07-2012, 07:49 PM
^^ Chinmaykar dude, I request you to please read my post again, and, I m not assuming anything here. I am an engineer myself and a practising mechanical engineer who gets his hands dirty doing the dirty stuff. So please be rest assured, that I know what I m talking.

I may not be directly involved with the motorcylce industry but I am pretty much aware of manufacturing processes, limits, tolerances etc. It will be very hard for me to believe that the reliability of a machine does not take a hit once you modify it out of the factory settings. As I said, it is a sum of all parts, you will never have a stock reliability in a modded bike unless,
1. you have upgraded all the parts for increased load
2. The upgraded parts are of same or better quality as the stock parts.

Again, I dont mean that all modded bikes will go up bonkers in the first instant. But as I said before, its the factor of safety one is playing with. As long as one is aware of the limits, it is good.

Regarding experience speaking, I guess one of the first posters here was one who had experienced it himself. Anyways I ll leave that out of discussion as I m not pointing to Joel or his workmanship here. Tomorrow I may modd my bike, but that will be in full knowledge that I cant expect stock reliability out of it.

And reliability for me is not 10K kms.

I would again reitrate, anybody may get his bike modded but dont expect stock reliability especially in case of major mods , but this does NOT mean your bike WILL be worse than it was before.

All the best. Know what you are doing to your bike and how it affects the other parts and be prepared to take any issues in your stride. Making an informed decision always helps later on.

Anyways I ve said what I had to and will not post further here as I m just going round and round on the same things. These things have been discussed to death already in the forum...
Cheers.
Leave a comment:
chinmayakar replied

09-07-2012, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by vibbs View Post

I dont agree in general to your post. But in your particular case I have no disagreements.

When we say ABC company is unreliable, it does not mean every ABC bike out there is giving problems. It just means the chances of having a problematic product rises. So it is perfectly possible to find a person who has had no problems with the product. You are a happy custommer but there are a few unhappy ones too.

The point is no manufacturer would like to leave an untapped potential in his product.Ideally he would want a perfect mix of performance and reliability. If he has done that, then there has to be reasons.

I ll take an example. Suppose there is a crane which is designed to lift 100 tonnes. Does it mean it can lift only 100 tonnes? No. Infact it would be tested at a higher load say 1.2-1.5 times and then certified as 100 tonnes to increase the factor of safety. Give a buffer. You may very well lift 110 tonnes with it, but it would be way less reliable than lifting 100 tonnes.

Similarly every part of a bike is designed with a factor of safety and each is matched with the bikes capability. By modifying an engine tuned to give 20 bhp, thereby increasing the output to say 23 Bhp, we are playing with this factor of safety. Thats where the loss of reliablility comes in.

That does not mean you should nt modify your bike. You may, but you should know what limits you are playing with. Talented tuners like Joel must be well aware of what the limits are of a bike and would be taking decisions based on that, but as a bike owner and somebody who is going to use it, one should be aware of the fact that you reliability has taken a hit unless you have gone and upgraded each and every part. I would again repeat, it does NOT mean every bike out there which is modified has problems, nor does it mean if you modify your bike you ll defenitely face problems, its just that the probability increases. You may be plain unlucky to fall on the wrong side of the probability.
Understand that, acknowledge it, and more importantly know what you are doing to YOUR bike and how it affects it, you would be happy. Else at the first sign of trouble one will start cursing the day he decided to undertake the mods.

Vibbs Dude, I too was under the same impression that you mentioned above before getting my bike Joeled. I too had lots of doubts, "why dont manufacturers do this in the first place? how can a moded bike be more reliable than the stock? and so on".
However, after meeting Joel and experiencing his work first hand, all those doubts are laid to rest. Mine was first 220 Dtsi on which Joel worked, and things could have gone wrong, if it were anybody else, but Joel.
I have very little or no knowledge about bikes, however from what I understand, manufacturers have to keep cost of manufacture in check. The setup that is from factory, is enough to satisfy almost anyone. However, there is a lot of scope for improvement, and that is where Joel comes in picture.
A lot of niggles that I had when the bike was in stock condition have disappeared.
Ultimately it depends on who is doing the Mods. If it is Joel, I trust him and his work.
And let the guys who have experienced Joels Mods or any other mods speak about their experience instead of others just speculating. Its better if TS gets to hear from them, as this could clear a lot of confusion.
If you are planning to get Joels Mods, better get it done from Joel himself.

Last edited by chinmayakar; 09-07-2012, 07:43 PM.
Leave a comment:
shv18 replied

09-07-2012, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Sunir-Dust View Post

Thank you vibbs ,and others for enlightening me

I have decided to research a bit more before doing this , i think i might just go meet joel and see what he has to say also .. I live in the same city , so no issues ...
Once i get this this mod and the bike works fine for 5-6k kms , the risk of it getting seized is still there or we shouldnt worry about it after that long ?

Sorry for noob questions guy ,
Thank you all , again

If you are in blore itself then why not try and get in touch with Rylan.. you can see his ride and if he is ok you can do a test ride and get an idea about the power and feel of the souped up ride? his thread:http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/pit-stop...-concepts.html

i had met Joel sometime back and had posted pics of the goodies on FZ thread: [Ownership Thread]: Yamaha FZ-16 - Page 1329 - xBhp.com : The Global Indian Biking Community

If Joel handles the tuning i don't think there should be any problem. An engine both souped up or stock just doesnot seize by itself; there are various factors associated with it:

1) Bad/no service maintenance as per schedule.
2) Lean AFR tuning.
3) Using wrong grade of engine oil.
4) Red lining the engine for extremely long distances.
5) Incorrect installation of the same.
6) Manufacturing/ metallurgical defects with the piston rings.
7) Worn out engine internals due to excessive abuse etc.

We have people here who have crossed 10,000+ kms and the engine still running strong on RC kits. Its is all about correct installation and regular service and care you would take just as on a stock bike. If parts are installed correctly and regular scheduled maintenance is followed, RC parts will outlast the life of stock block and piston.

If you still have doubts meet the man himself and get your doubts cleared.

Cheers,

Last edited by shv18; 09-07-2012, 06:54 PM.
Leave a comment:
vibbs replied

09-07-2012, 05:55 PM
Oh well and i thought people would want to read a post in entirety and also in context with the topic being discussed and not just quote a part of it and scrutinize it.
Anyways, I m in no mood to nit pick. I ve made my point and given my opinion, its upto the TS to take it or chuck it.
Leave a comment:
Sunir-Dust replied

09-07-2012, 05:53 PM
Thank you vibbs ,and others for enlightening me

I have decided to research a bit more before doing this , i think i might just go meet joel and see what he has to say also .. I live in the same city , so no issues ...
Once i get this this mod and the bike works fine for 5-6k kms , the risk of it getting seized is still there or we shouldnt worry about it after that long ?

Sorry for noob questions guy ,
Thank you all , again
Leave a comment:
mid replied

09-07-2012, 05:42 PM
^^^I had actually quoted for which I have answered!
Leave a comment:
vibbs replied

09-07-2012, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by mid View Post

Manufacturers are always forced to compromise on potential(performance and efficiency) to meet today's stricter emission norms and user friendliness. For example the new cbr150r has to incorporate newer catcon resulting in 1 bhp dip and 1 kg bump. Even a performance tuned FFE for Fz can do wonders by boosting:- power, engine life (lessens back pressure and there by limiting exhaust gases entering the combustion chamber resulting less carbon deposits there), FE & better weight-power ratio!
And yes mods has to be taken care of.

Please take a look at the opening post and see what the thread starter wants to do with his bike. It is not a simple performance tuned FFE that he has in his mind but a 180 cc block for his Bike.
quoting it for you

Originally posted by Sunir-Dust View Post

Planning to put 180cc joel's kit for it , please guide me , i am a noob in bike mods

I had a few questions :

will the kit effect the reliability of my bike?

Can it cause any MAJOR issues like the engine seizing up ?

planning to go for a long long ride (leh) soon , will this cause any issues during the trip?

Lastly , should a noob like me go for the kit ?

I am buying this kit mainly to increase mialge figures , which he (joel) assured will increase by 8-10% ,
Please guide me about this guys ,
Thank you all very much for your help ! I appreciate it much !

In either case, I ve made it pretty clear that the intention of my post is not to admonish modds, but accept and realise that it comes with a risk, however small it may be and know it clearly what you are doing with your bike and then proceed. That way you will be in a position to care for your modded bikes too.
Leave a comment:
mid replied

09-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by vibbs View Post

The point is no manufacturer would like to leave an untapped potential in his product.Ideally he would want a perfect mix of performance and reliability. If he has done that, then there has to be reasons.

Manufacturers are always forced to compromise on potential(performance and efficiency) to meet today's stricter emission norms and user friendliness. For example the new cbr150r has to incorporate newer catcon resulting in 1 bhp dip and 1 kg bump. Even a performance tuned FFE for Fz can do wonders by boosting:- power, engine life (lessens back pressure and there by limiting exhaust gases entering the combustion chamber resulting less carbon deposits there), FE & better weight-power ratio!
And yes mods has to be taken care of.

Last edited by mid; 09-07-2012, 05:26 PM.
Leave a comment: