Inflating Tyres with Nitrogen

[athulbenoy]

Nitrogen

Hey guys hw much does Nitrogen Air cost and can any one tell me where i can fill nitrogen air in Kerala

[driverace]

Without pointing fingers at anybody, it has been my observation that MANY riders top-up their tires after riding for awhile. A tire should NEVER be filled up when warm, especially true with Nitrogen as the PSI reading will be off, resulting in over inflation. (Hence the rock-hard complaint after the tire cools down)
..

Just one query here:

Say, if we ride for around 10km and go to an air-station to fill up air.
We fill in / correct the tire pressure (say for e.g.) = 30 psi
Lets assume - tire inside temp(existing) = 40 degrees.

__

Over night the tire cools and comes to Room temp = 28 degrees.

__

Now,
My guess would be, the pressure if it was 30 psi @ 40 degrees,
and the insides of the tire cool down to 28 degrees,

We should have a (comparitively) under-inflated tire say (for e.g.) like - 27 psi.

___

Can anyone please explain,
how it would result in over pressure? ( or in the R15's case - pressure going to 40 psi? )
I am also very puzzled with that happening!

___

Apart from that, My query:

Guys,

I just put a liquid sealant in my tyres ( Stock tires - Fz-16).

The brand is 'preventaflat' and its an australian brand.
The Tyre shop owner claims its reports are much better than Yam suggested 'Slime' brand.

I went with that, (and trusting my friends, who guided me to him - saying him to be a good and a proff guy.)

Any of you have any experience with similar sealants?

Also,

As I am setting up the bike for Saddlesore 1000- next weekend, I also filled Nitrogen in both tires after the sealant (F-29 and R-36) - Just to check the feedback/and test in city.
Recommended pressures are (F-28 & R-33)
Ride just feels a tad-bit bumpy.

I am used to riding the Fz with 29 and 34 (usually with the assumption, that I am compensating the heat that I put in the tyres by the time I reach the Air filling stations!)

Do I continue with same pressure, or get it down to the recommended pressure?

Thanks,

Ace.

[siddharth_ZMR]

Advantages of Nitrogen :


[*]Nitrogen is a gas that does not support combustion, therefore in case of an extremely overheated tire catching fire, nitrogen makes for much better safety than regular air (which contains oxygen that supports combustion).

Normal air filled in tyre is not combustible even though it contains oxygen. Going on by the given explanation all metal foundaries or any high temperature place should be in vaccum.

Whatever you said is it really proved by any experiment or just a add on to the advantage list?

I am not going against you but many nitrogen filling stations give wrong information about advantages of nitrogen.

[Sarvajit]

I think my R15 is showing adverse effects to Nitrogen. It is losing pressure very soon-lost about 9 psi in 5 days. I was quite amazed since normal air never used to go down this soon, how can it happen with Nitrogen.
There are no rim bends, only possibility is one of the old punctures has given way slightly, but even in that case it should have gone flat in a day or two-that also hasn't happened. It is steadily losing about 1 psi from the front, which is somewhat acceptable and 2 psi per day from the rear, which is not.
Any ideas on it?

I don't whether this is coincidence or something fishy. I too started facing front and rear tyre(R15) losing air pressure after switching to Nitrogen. I switched back to normal air and till date get air pressure checked and corrected twice a week. Pain but could get any solution to air pressure going low day by day.

Without pointing fingers at anybody, it has been my observation that MANY riders top-up their tires after riding for a while. A tire should NEVER be filled up when warm, especially true with Nitrogen as the PSI reading will be off, resulting in over inflation. (Hence the rock-hard complaint after the tire cools down)

The culprit for loss of pressure after filling N2 is normally down to the quality of the Nitrogen. Filling stations use N2 from generators which actually remove the oxygen and moisture from regular air - at least in theory. These generators unfortunately do not always produce 'pure' N2 due to losses in efficiency due to lack of maintenance of the equipment, etc., Of course, another culprit could be a leaky valve or old re-opened puncture.

I have been using N2 for over 3 years , topping up about every 45 days at a reputed tire dealer in my locality in both my cars and bikes and have had ZERO complaints so far. I do not believe that our modest driving will generate so much heat that we need N2 to cool down our tires but I do feel that the single most important benefit is having properly inflated tires most of the time.

Hope this helps. Cheers!

Thanks for the inputs. I am now using Nitrogen on a regular basis too.
I would like to correct my above post-after the above incident, I found 3-4 small punctures in the rear tyre&got them fixed.
My observations now:
1. The rear tyre loses about 2psi per week, considering its age.
2. The front tyre loses about 1psi per week, same age but no punctures yet.
Generally TL tyres lose pressure faster than TT tyres, added to that I'm running on worn out tyres, so it is even worse in my case. However,
I am quite satisfied with Nitrogen, as in case of normal air I would be running to fill air every 3-4 days. Now I'm filling Nitrogen once in 15 days&am a happy man-this will suffice until I get the tyres changed!

[Sunnyside_up!]

Just one query here:

Say, if we ride for around 10km and go to an air-station to fill up air.
We fill in / correct the tire pressure (say for e.g.) = 30 psi
Lets assume - tire inside temp(existing) = 40 degrees.

__

Over night the tire cools and comes to Room temp = 28 degrees.

__

Now,
My guess would be, the pressure if it was 30 psi @ 40 degrees,
and the insides of the tire cool down to 28 degrees,

We should have a (comparitively) under-inflated tire say (for e.g.) like - 27 psi.

___

Can anyone please explain,
how it would result in over pressure? ( or in the R15's case - pressure going to 40 psi? )
I am also very puzzled with that happening!



Ace.

The reason that one should not fill tyres after riding is that the rubber compound in the tyres will be softer due to heat generated while riding and therefore be likely to expand more easily. If it expands more due to heat, it will take more air to reach a certain PSI reading. Later, when the tyres cool down, this extra air will be compressed by the cooling tyre walls leading to a higher PSI reading - otherwise known as over inflation!

Hope this settles your doubt!

Regarding riding the 10 kms to fill the N2, I would say look for a closer source even though I doubt a short 10km ride will heat up the tires too much. Otherwise, you can always go old-school and pour water over the tires and wait a while to cool them off!

My personal experience with 'Slime' and other sealants is that they make the tyres feel heavy and affect the dynamics of the bike - so I don't like or use them. Prefer carrying a puncture kit.

[Sunnyside_up!]

Thanks for the inputs. I am now using Nitrogen on a regular basis too.
I would like to correct my above post-after the above incident, I found 3-4 small punctures in the rear tyre&got them fixed.
My observations now:
1. The rear tyre loses about 2psi per week, considering its age.
2. The front tyre loses about 1psi per week, same age but no punctures yet.
Generally TL tyres lose pressure faster than TT tyres, added to that I'm running on worn out tyres, so it is even worse in my case. However,
I am quite satisfied with Nitrogen, as in case of normal air I would be running to fill air every 3-4 days. Now I'm filling Nitrogen once in 15 days&am a happy man-this will suffice until I get the tyres changed!

Glad to hear that it worked out for you. Get yourself new tyres and watch your need to top-up lengthen to 30/45 days intervals like me. Your mileage, handling and even shocks will be better, direct result of riding with properly inflated tyres most of the time.

On a different note, I just sold my 15K KM ridden Ninja which were still riding on stock tyres and they still looked new! Compare this against most guys who changed tyres around 10-12K kms. I definitely attribute it partly to properly inflated tyres.

[Sarvajit]

Glad to hear that it worked out for you. Get yourself new tyres and watch your need to top-up lengthen to 30/45 days intervals like me. Your mileage, handling and even shocks will be better, direct result of riding with properly inflated tyres most of the time.

On a different note, I just sold my 15K KM ridden Ninja which were still riding on stock tyres and they still looked new! Compare this against most guys who changed tyres around 10-12K kms. I definitely attribute it partly to properly inflated tyres.

Yes, the importance of having properly inflated tyres can never be over emphasized-direct impact on mileage, suspension other than tyre longevity, handling etc.
The best part is, properly inflated tyres will not allow the rim to bend if thrown into a pothole whereas there have been many cases of rim bends due to under inflated tyres!
Yes, I need to get the tyres changed. Just hope I can change the bike with stock tyres like you did!

[driverace]

The reason that one should not fill tyres after riding is that the rubber compound in the tyres will be softer due to heat generated while riding and therefore be likely to expand more easily. If it expands more due to heat, it will take more air to reach a certain PSI reading. Later, when the tyres cool down, this extra air will be compressed by the cooling tyre walls leading to a higher PSI reading - otherwise known as over inflation!

Hope this settles your doubt!

Oh, this factor, I did not think about!
Thanks for explaining it so well!
My personal experience with 'Slime' and other sealants is that they make the tyres feel heavy and affect the dynamics of the bike - so I don't like or use them. Prefer carrying a puncture kit.

Ok,
Thanks for the input on that too!
Ya, around 200 ml of liquid (almost 200 gm of weight - free to move in the tire - sure will mean some change in dynamics)
But, then again - by what magnitude? Can't say..

care,

Ace.

[Samarth 619]

Nitrogen in tires

Guys, I just had an idea!! Note these points:

1. People fill up 100% nitrogen air in their tyres so that their tubeless tyres stay cool, right?

2. And Our air has 78% nitrogen & 21% oxygen which gives normal temperatures to our tyres.

3. Then it is possible that tyres be filled up with more than 50-70% of oxygen, so that they remain heated up for the entire race, such as a MotoGP Race and give grip? Less Nitrogen means lesser cooling & more heat.

As you know the motoGP's Bridgestones tyres lose heat quickly. Approach 4 left hand corners and then a right hander, and you might crash, as the right side loses heat and grip so damn quickly.

Note: 100% oxygen filling is not feasible since the slightest of friction will erupt a fire instantly (correct me if I'm wrong).


Is it possible/ feasible? Any comments on this idea?

[antz.bin]

Guys, I just had an idea!! Note these points:

1. People fill up 100% nitrogen air in their tyres so that their tubeless tyres stay cool, right?

2. And Our air has 78% nitrogen & 21% oxygen which gives normal temperatures to our tyres.

3. Then it is possible that tyres be filled up with more than 50-70% of oxygen, so that they remain heated up for the entire race, such as a MotoGP Race and give grip? Less Nitrogen means lesser cooling & more heat.

As you know the motoGP's Bridgestones tyres lose heat quickly. Approach 4 left hand corners and then a right hander, and you might crash, as the right side loses heat and grip so damn quickly.

Note: 100% oxygen filling is not feasible since the slightest of friction will erupt a fire instantly (correct me if I'm wrong).


Is it possible/ feasible? Any comments on this idea?

As we learnt in 12th standard Chemistry, as per Gay-Lussac's law, pressure rise is directly proportional to rise in temperature. In our case, it is the temperature of the tire which is rising due to friction with the road. It has nothing to do with whether it has Argon or Hydrogen inside. As long as it is ANY gas inside, the temperature will rise since it is a function determined by the tire and road. Temperature will rise, and so will pressure. Thats how it is supposed to work even as per the manufacturer.

What Nitrogen does help in is it reduces the loss of air due to oxidation of the tire under high pressure(debatable though possible). There is less leakage, the cold tire pressure remains constant longer, you don't need to check the tire pressure over and over again, and you reduce your chances of under-inflating the tire unknowingly. Since there is no 21% oxygen in pure nitrogen(when compared with air), the oxygen cannot react with the inner rubber of the tire and ruin it(debatable) in effect reducing the tire pressure and tire life(debatable).

Also, even if there is 100% oxygen in an environment, it doesn't mean it will combust spontaneously. Oxygen needs to react with *something* to burn.

eg. C8H18 (Petrol) + O2 --(combustion)--> CO2 + H2O
C4H10 (LPG) + O2 --(Combustion)--> CO2 + H2O

[Samarth 619]

^ Can't understand your point. I never heard about tires' inner parts being "ruined" due to filling in normal air, even slightly.(?) And I think tire life has more to do with outside wear and tear rather than that on the inside, isn't it?

And tire pressure is always a limit. Even after reaching that limit, if you want more grip, what will you do? Just replace the tyre, isn't it?

And I'm not saying that O2 will combust spontaneously, but it will be hyper reactive. And many things in the open environment have carbon, so it will react instantly on friction, correct me if I'm wrong?


Still, if we fill in more oxygen with lesser nitrogen, what will be its effects, can you clarify? I've heard that pure nitrogen helps in cooling, even for rockets, astronauts, industrial requirements, etc. hence came to that conclusion.

[antz.bin]

^ Can't understand your point. I never heard about tires' inner parts being "ruined" due to filling in normal air, even slightly.(?) And I think tire life has more to do with outside wear and tear rather than that on the inside, isn't it?

And tire pressure is always a limit. Even after reaching that limit, if you want more grip, what will you do? Just replace the tyre, isn't it?

And I'm not saying that O2 will combust spontaneously, but it will be hyper reactive. And many things in the open environment have carbon, so it will react instantly on friction, correct me if I'm wrong?


Still, if we fill in more oxygen with lesser nitrogen, what will be its effects, can you clarify? I've heard that pure nitrogen helps in cooling, even for rockets, astronauts, industrial requirements, etc. hence came to that conclusion.

OK now I will clarify the doubt.

The fact that a tire runs cooler on Nitrogen than Air has nothing to do with tires running cooler due to a chemical property of Nitrogen. The same effect can be achieved even if we fill Helium, Argon, Xenon etc. which are chemically inert.

Fact 1: Tires tend to heat up more when they are run on lower than recommended tire pressure.

Q: Why?
A: Due to lower air pressure, the contact patch of the tire with the road increases. Leading to increased rolling friction and hence heat.

Q: Then how Nitrogen filled tires run cooler than Air filled tires?
A: The tire pressure mentioned on the Swingarm (/ Door Sill) by the manufacturer is the cold tire pressure. It doesn't matter of you fill Air or nitrogen. Both will perform identically if this is adhered to. When the tire warms up, the tire pressures WILL rise. By upto 6-8 PSI at highway speeds regardless of whether it has Air or Nitrogen. Thats how they are supposed to work. But you and me = layman is not supposed to know this or it will freak us out.

Fact 2: 90% of the time, we never check tire pressure on cold tires.

Q: Why?
A: Cold tires are defined as those which have been stationary for >3 hours and ridden/driven for <1 mile (As per my Honda Civic Manual). By the time we reach the puncturewala/petrol pump, the tires heat up and no longer fit the 'Cold Tire' definition.

Q: But I always maintain manufacturer recommended tire pressures!
A: If we check and fill manufacturer recommended air pressures on heated up tires, we in fact fill less than required air, and thats the reason tires heat up.

Q: Then how this doesn't happen with N2?
A: We check tire pressure less often if we have N2 filled. Less chances of screwing up.

Q: Why do we lose air and not Nitrogen?
A: As you mentioned, Oxygen is more reactive than N2. Is it not possible, considering the high pressures involved in the insides of a tire, that the oxygen reacts with the rubber of the tire itself?

Q: If this is the case, why pure Nitrogen is used for cooling applications for rockets, astronauts, industrial requirements?
A: Yes, they do, but they use it in its Liquid form. We don't fill liquid Nitrogen in tires.

I hope this clears up your doubts. If you have anything else, keep shooting.

[aargee]

Just adding 2 points regarding Nitrogen & tire...
- Nitrogen is less likely to migrate through tire rubber than is oxygen, which means that your tire pressures will remain more stable over the long term. This means, tires filled with N2 exhibit less pressure change with temperature swings
- Humidity (water) is a Bad Thing to have inside a tire. Water, present as a vapor or even as a liquid in a tire, causes more of a pressure change with temperature swings than dry air does. It also promotes corrosion of the rim. Typical air fills does have some moisture combines with O2 & corrodes the rim from inside which is not possible in the case of N2

[vickks]

^ is it likely that Nitrogen escape out faster than air when vehicle being parked for a long time (>1month)?
In my case, I filled nitrogen for the 1st time, went on a trip of 1100kms, came back after 3 days and the next day parked my bike for 45 days.
After 45 days, hot tire pressure was 19 and 24 in front and rear resp.
Refilled nitrogen again, went for a 1700kms trip, returned back with a hot pressure of 30 and 35 resp. Road conditions being more or less same for both the trips.

[aargee]

^ is it likely that Nitrogen escape out faster than air when vehicle being parked for a long time (>1month)

Oh!!! no no!!! N2 is heavier than rest of the masala air & it tends to escape less. This is why N2 filled cars have to be refilled once in 3 months or so.

In my case, I filled...or less same for both the trips.

Hmm...something strange