Engine Oils

[Vipergts07]

Re: Engine Oils

Why arent you switching to fully synthetic instead?

SS is not recommended for new engines. I did mention that it's a new scoot.

[Reybey]

Re: Engine Oils

SS is not recommended for new engines. I did mention that it's a new scoot.

Ah apologies, btw good you got the jupiter, i got the honda activa 2013 and ended up getting a new rear suspension from the jupiter and DIY'd the jupiter pass light onto the activa. Mileage is good though in the activa i get around 55kmpl in the city. The front suspension is still very firm and i feel every single bump on the road

[Pinaki]

Re: Engine Oils

... I thought I’ll switch to fully synthetic. The local mechanic told me the activa is a basic scooter and so fully synths are like watering plants with an Aquafina. But then again I wanted a second opinion about whether it’s worth it. I thought fully synthetic engine oils need only 10000 km or 1 year, whichever is first. Or is that for cars alone ?

I would very much agree with your mechanic . Where did you get that drainage intervals for synthetic oil ? there is no such extended drain period recommendation by either Honda ( or other bike manufacturer ) or the oil companies . In my humble opinion , your best bet would be to use any good quality low-cost mineral based oil from gulf or motul , and keep the drain intervals reasonably shorter ( than company recommended 3000kms or 6 months ) . Like say drain it every 2000 Kms or 4 months , whichever occurs earlier for you . That would keep the motor always running in fresh oil which is really the best for it .

Car engine oils are quite different in terms of tech and additives added. Some last for 20-30k kms too. ... even if you shift to ss now you won't feel the entire difference that it offers. Hence the flush suggestion. ...

Car engine oil lasts longer not because of any additives , but because it is much much less stressed than motorcycle oils . This is because motorcycle oil has to work as engine oil , gear oil , clutch oil , engine coolant & engine cleaner at once . Also motorcycles typically have very small volume oil sumps so less volume of oil has to cope with all , repeatedly . Particularly the shearing forces inside the gear train degrades the oil very fast . Compared to it car oils have easy life
Engine flush is never recommended by any bike manufacturer and it is never needed for motorcycles . You are very likely to do more harm than any good with it . I don't think even the engine flush oil manufacturers recommend using it inside bike engines either . If motorcycle engine is really dirty inside ( which is unlikely if regular oil changes are done in correct intervals ) , it is best to disassemble and clean it . Otherwise all motorcycles have some mechanism to clean up the oil as it circulates inside the engine . Some have replaceable oil-filters , cleanable mesh filters or rotary centrifugal filters . Just change/clean up those timely and stick to timely oil change is enough .

[Pinaki]

Valvoline champion 4T 10w30 fraudulent labeling .

Something came to my notice recently which I'd like to report here , just to let you guys know how oil companies have low esteem of Indian consumer's intellect and often resort to blatant malpractice . Or maybe it is because our legal system lets them get away with it with impunity . Or both .

Recently I bought this oil from my local motor-oils shop in Kolkata , I am sure oils like this is available everywhere and millions of bottles sold . It was past my bike's usual oil change interval which I maintain very strictly and because my usual oil ( gulf / motul ) was not available . Also it was quite cheap @ Rs 210 after discounts and the brand is a reputed one . I did not hesitate to buy .




It has the semi-transparent line at the side of the bottle which lets you view the approx volume of stuff remaining inside , which I liked .



I have been using this oil in my bike ( 2010 Splendor+ ) for more than a month now and it has been working as usual , which means my bike's motor running smoothly without any hiccups . It's not as slick as the old Gulf Synth ( discontinued now ) or motul 3000+ , but not any problems whatsoever you'd notice . All in all , a good cheap regular oil .

Then one evening having some faltu time I checked this up ...



And found something very fishy ....

Notice the JASO certification used by Valvoline-Cummins on the back label ? It's not fake , but it is !! This is because this JASO certification was issued for a very different oil product they have in the market , i.e Valvoline Champ 4T 20w40 . Not for the Valvoline Champion 4T 10W30 product they are using this certification-symbol and certification number with !
This is the page from JASO certification list , notice item 652 .



Friends you speak your opinion about this because I am not sure what to say , only sure that this Valvoline Champion 4T 10W30 oil was never JASO certified and they have used the JASO marking on it to fool buyers . Not expected from a reputed manufacturer Valvoline-Cummins who sells thousands maybe millions of bottles of oil in India alone

[Vipergts07]

Re: Engine Oils

I would very much agree with your mechanic . Where did you get that drainage intervals for synthetic oil ? there is no such extended drain period recommendation by either Honda ( or other bike manufacturer ) or the oil companies . In my humble opinion , your best bet would be to use any good quality low-cost mineral based oil from gulf or motul , and keep the drain intervals reasonably shorter ( than company recommended 3000kms or 6 months ) . Like say drain it every 2000 Kms or 4 months , whichever occurs earlier for you . That would keep the motor always running in fresh oil which is really the best for it .

Car engine oil lasts longer not because of any additives , but because it is much much less stressed than motorcycle oils . This is because motorcycle oil has to work as engine oil , gear oil , clutch oil , engine coolant & engine cleaner at once . Also motorcycles typically have very small volume oil sumps so less volume of oil has to cope with all , repeatedly . Particularly the shearing forces inside the gear train degrades the oil very fast . Compared to it car oils have easy life
Engine flush is never recommended by any bike manufacturer and it is never needed for motorcycles . You are very likely to do more harm than any good with it . I don't think even the engine flush oil manufacturers recommend using it inside bike engines either . If motorcycle engine is really dirty inside ( which is unlikely if regular oil changes are done in correct intervals ) , it is best to disassemble and clean it . Otherwise all motorcycles have some mechanism to clean up the oil as it circulates inside the engine . Some have replaceable oil-filters , cleanable mesh filters or rotary centrifugal filters . Just change/clean up those timely and stick to timely oil change is enough .

Some oil companies do advertise of a 7-10k kms usage possibility. Some even use the oil to that extent. Wouldn't recommend any FS oil usage beyond 5k.

Car oils do have additives. That's one of the reasons why they can't be used in bike engines among others. Most 2 wheelers will have some sort of a filter but those are rarely accessed before a rebuild. For example, the oil strainer in a Uni can be accessed by only removing the right engine cover which is not feasible unless done yourself. Mechs charge a bomb for engine opening.

Have never used a flush, but have already bought the 3M 2 wheeler flush. At 60k kms, need to try. Again the feasibility of opening an engine to clean the internals is questionable. Preferably not for new vehicles though.

[Pinaki]

Re: Engine Oils

.. by only removing the right engine cover which is not feasible unless done yourself. Mechs charge a bomb for engine opening. ..

Like the Uni my Splendor+ also has a oil-strainer & centrifugal filter . It requires the right crankcase cover and then another screwed-down rotor cover to be removed for access , which is very simple . No engine opening req . I have already done it twice , second time all by myself . First time it was done during paid service and Hero service charged me the normal service charge of Rs 180 only ( plus oil price and Rs 25 for the gasket ) , no extra costs . In my bike's owner's manual this procedure is recommended at first service ( 500-750 kms ) , third service ( 5000-5500 kms ) , 6th service ( 11000-11500 kms ) , and then every 6000 kms for life . Nowhere in the book any mention of flushing or such thing in the faintest . So there is no question for me as to what to do to keep my bike's engine clean and healthy - check the owner's manual . Infact I have been quite lazy & late , going to clean my bike's strainer / rotor-filter again this December during oil change . Those bikes that have replaceable filter , it's even easier to replace at every oil change . Nothing else necessary .

Problems I think may happen with trying to flush out bike engine is

i) you can never drain all the oil out of a motorcycle engine with normal draining procedure . It is designed in that way so that even after the bike has not been started for considerable days and oil has drained back into the sump , the bearings shall still have some oil trapped around it for the first start and not run dry ever . So after using the flushing solvent and draining it some of the stuff is going to remain inside the engine and then contaminate the new fresh oil you use - which is really bad .

ii) running the engine even for 30 seconds in oil diluted by the flushing solvent is going to damage bearing surfaces inside the engine , and cause rough running thereafter for ever .

iii) many areas inside the engine is designed to trap dirt ( like the rotor filter for example ) . On using any solvent it may loosen up those dirt and move it around to block up any one or more of the fine oil passage channels inside the engine . Blocked oil circulation = certain engine damage .

[leech]

Re: Engine Oils

Like the Uni my Splendor+ also has a oil-strainer & centrifugal filter . It requires the right crankcase cover and then another screwed-down rotor cover to be removed for access , which is very simple . No engine opening req . I have already done it twice , second time all by myself . First time it was done during paid service and Hero service charged me the normal service charge of Rs 180 only ( plus oil price and Rs 25 for the gasket ) , no extra costs . In my bike's owner's manual this procedure is recommended at first service ( 500-750 kms ) , third service ( 5000-5500 kms ) , 6th service ( 11000-11500 kms ) , and then every 6000 kms for life . Nowhere in the book any mention of flushing or such thing in the faintest . So there is no question for me as to what to do to keep my bike's engine clean and healthy - check the owner's manual . Infact I have been quite lazy & late , going to clean my bike's strainer / rotor-filter again this December during oil change . Those bikes that have replaceable filter , it's even easier to replace at every oil change . Nothing else necessary .

Problems I think may happen with trying to flush out bike engine is

i) you can never drain all the oil out of a motorcycle engine with normal draining procedure . It is designed in that way so that even after the bike has not been started for considerable days and oil has drained back into the sump , the bearings shall still have some oil trapped around it for the first start and not run dry ever . So after using the flushing solvent and draining it some of the stuff is going to remain inside the engine and then contaminate the new fresh oil you use - which is really bad .

ii) running the engine even for 30 seconds in oil diluted by the flushing solvent is going to damage bearing surfaces inside the engine , and cause rough running thereafter for ever .

iii) many areas inside the engine is designed to trap dirt ( like the rotor filter for example ) . On using any solvent it may loosen up those dirt and move it around to block up any one or more of the fine oil passage channels inside the engine . Blocked oil circulation = certain engine damage .

What about using Shell Rimula R4 HDEO as a flush, run it for 250 Kms and repeat?

[vvk1999]

Re: Engine Oils

Like the Uni my Splendor+ also has a oil-strainer & centrifugal filter . It requires the right crankcase cover and then another screwed-down rotor cover to be removed for access , which is very simple . No engine opening req . I have already done it twice , second time all by myself . First time it was done during paid service and Hero service charged me the normal service charge of Rs 180 only ( plus oil price and Rs 25 for the gasket ) , no extra costs . In my bike's owner's manual this procedure is recommended at first service ( 500-750 kms ) , third service ( 5000-5500 kms ) , 6th service ( 11000-11500 kms ) , and then every 6000 kms for life . Nowhere in the book any mention of flushing or such thing in the faintest . So there is no question for me as to what to do to keep my bike's engine clean and healthy - check the owner's manual . Infact I have been quite lazy & late , going to clean my bike's strainer / rotor-filter again this December during oil change . Those bikes that have replaceable filter , it's even easier to replace at every oil change . Nothing else necessary .

Problems I think may happen with trying to flush out bike engine is

i) you can never drain all the oil out of a motorcycle engine with normal draining procedure . It is designed in that way so that even after the bike has not been started for considerable days and oil has drained back into the sump , the bearings shall still have some oil trapped around it for the first start and not run dry ever . So after using the flushing solvent and draining it some of the stuff is going to remain inside the engine and then contaminate the new fresh oil you use - which is really bad .

ii) running the engine even for 30 seconds in oil diluted by the flushing solvent is going to damage bearing surfaces inside the engine , and cause rough running thereafter for ever .

iii) many areas inside the engine is designed to trap dirt ( like the rotor filter for example ) . On using any solvent it may loosen up those dirt and move it around to block up any one or more of the fine oil passage channels inside the engine . Blocked oil circulation = certain engine damage .

The myth about flushing agents is they remain in new oil . but as the flushing liquid has much more lesser vaporising point it gets evaporated when engine gets hot at first time only after oil change .
clutch cover removing & cleaning is time consuming & never recommend for higher capacity , complicated engines {like r15 , ns200 etc } ,so better use a engine flush .

[#bpk]

Re: Engine Oils

Like the Uni my Splendor+ also has a oil-strainer & centrifugal filter . It requires the right crankcase cover and then another screwed-down rotor cover to be removed for access , which is very simple . No engine opening req . I have already done it twice , second time all by myself . First time it was done during paid service and Hero service charged me the normal service charge of Rs 180 only ( plus oil price and Rs 25 for the gasket ) , no extra costs . In my bike's owner's manual this procedure is recommended at first service ( 500-750 kms ) , third service ( 5000-5500 kms ) , 6th service ( 11000-11500 kms ) , and then every 6000 kms for life . Nowhere in the book any mention of flushing or such thing in the faintest . So there is no question for me as to what to do to keep my bike's engine clean and healthy - check the owner's manual . Infact I have been quite lazy & late , going to clean my bike's strainer / rotor-filter again this December during oil change . Those bikes that have replaceable filter , it's even easier to replace at every oil change . Nothing else necessary .

Problems I think may happen with trying to flush out bike engine is

i) you can never drain all the oil out of a motorcycle engine with normal draining procedure . It is designed in that way so that even after the bike has not been started for considerable days and oil has drained back into the sump , the bearings shall still have some oil trapped around it for the first start and not run dry ever . So after using the flushing solvent and draining it some of the stuff is going to remain inside the engine and then contaminate the new fresh oil you use - which is really bad .

ii) running the engine even for 30 seconds in oil diluted by the flushing solvent is going to damage bearing surfaces inside the engine , and cause rough running thereafter for ever .

iii) many areas inside the engine is designed to trap dirt ( like the rotor filter for example ) . On using any solvent it may loosen up those dirt and move it around to block up any one or more of the fine oil passage channels inside the engine . Blocked oil circulation = certain engine damage .

Please post diy on oil strainer cleaning of super splendor. I have completed 27k and not cleaned it till now. Please, help me.

[#bpk]

Re: Engine Oils

The myth about flushing agents is they remain in new oil . but as the flushing liquid has much more lesser vaporising point it gets evaporated when engine gets hot at first time only after oil change .
clutch cover removing & cleaning is time consuming & never recommend for higher capacity , complicated engines {like r15 , ns200 etc } ,so better use a engine flush .

Modern engines have external oil filter which makes the diy job easy. Honda doesn't provide external oil filter for hornet also, it's such a pain .

[Pinaki]

Re: Engine Oils

What about using Shell Rimula R4 HDEO as a flush, run it for 250 Kms and repeat?

That would be fine because this oil reportedly has no friction-modifier additives in it ( unlike most car oils ) . Or better even to use ordinary thin bike oils like 10w30 and drain soon if you wish special cleaning for the engine in certain situations . Like say you've just bought a second-hand bike which you suspect has not had regular services . Otherwise for a engine which has always had regular oil changes and filter replacement/cleaning nothing special need be done for cleaning it internally .

Please post diy on oil strainer cleaning of super splendor. I have completed 27k and not cleaned it till now. Please, help me.

OH ! but don't worry , when I first opened up my Splendor's rotor filter there was dirt trapped in it , but not enough to cause any blockage ( i.e far less than it's capacity ) . Just get it cleaned now . You can simply go to Hero service and get it done there . It is included in the regular service charge . But do write specifically to do rotor-filter & strainer cleaning in job-card , otherwise they find convenient to skip it

Modern engines have external oil filter which makes the diy job easy. Honda doesn't provide external oil filter for hornet also, it's such a pain .

There is some reasons why Honda prefer the centrifugal filter + strainer system .
Replaceable filters are not perfect -
i) they slow down oil flow because they are in the path .
ii) as the filter gets loaded up gradually so more and more obstruction to oil flow .
iii) dirt holding capacity is used up as soon as the paper element area is covered with dirt , so every replaceable filter must have a bypass mechanism - which bypass it when it is fully choked , but then dirty oil circulates .
iv) filtration size depends on the size of the paper pores . If made too porous to allow better oil flow then size of particles that can be trapped is also large and finer particles shall pass . So a compromise must be accepted .
v) cost of replacement & availability of the replaceable module .

Centrifugal filters on the other hand
i) filtration does not depend on the size of the dirt particles , it shall trap all size dirt by centrifugal action.
ii) minimal slowdown in oil flow .
iii) massive dirt holding capacity , it has large space inside to hold the trapped dirt. moreover the fast centrifugal action compress the trapped dirt and gives even more capacity .
iv) uniform filtration - until it's dirt holding capacity is full / exceeded , it has same oil flow from beginning to end . i.e No gradual degradation to oil-flow like paper element .
v) no replaceable parts / costs .

[#bpk]

Re: Engine Oils

That would be fine because this oil reportedly has no friction-modifier additives in it ( unlike most car oils ) . Or better even to use ordinary thin bike oils like 10w30 and drain soon if you wish special cleaning for the engine in certain situations . Like say you've just bought a second-hand bike which you suspect has not had regular services . Otherwise for a engine which has always had regular oil changes and filter replacement/cleaning nothing special need be done for cleaning it internally .

OH ! but don't worry , when I first opened up my Splendor's rotor filter there was dirt trapped in it , but not enough to cause any blockage ( i.e far less than it's capacity ) . Just get it cleaned now . You can simply go to Hero service and get it done there . It is included in the regular service charge . But do write specifically to do rotor-filter & strainer cleaning in job-card , otherwise they find convenient to skip it

Yes, most mechanics are kamchor.

[Vipergts07]

Re: Engine Oils

The myth about flushing agents is they remain in new oil . but as the flushing liquid has much more lesser vaporising point it gets evaporated when engine gets hot at first time only after oil change .
clutch cover removing & cleaning is time consuming & never recommend for higher capacity , complicated engines {like r15 , ns200 etc } ,so better use a engine flush .

True that. The only time I see opening up that area would be to change the clutch plates, which as of now isn't on the horizon even after 60k and 11 yrs. My strainer has never been cleaned till now. Thought about it, but decided against it. If anyone gets false neutrals, change oil, adjust clutch play or change clutch cable. Clutch plates usually last fairly long atleast on the old bikes if the above 3 are done timely. New ones seem to have clutch plate replacement as part of the service schedule.

[vvk1999]

Re: Engine Oils

Modern engines have external oil filter which makes the diy job easy. Honda doesn't provide external oil filter for hornet also, it's such a pain .

that's why honda use thin oil , hornet's engine is same old unicorn's engine , old wine in new bottle

[Pinaki]

Re: Engine Oils

True that. The only time I see opening up that area would be to change the clutch plates, which as of now isn't on the horizon even after 60k and 11 yrs. My strainer has never been cleaned till now. Thought about it, but decided against it. If anyone gets false neutrals, change oil, adjust clutch play or change clutch cable. Clutch plates usually last fairly long atleast on the old bikes if the above 3 are done timely. New ones seem to have clutch plate replacement as part of the service schedule.

Which bike you are having brother ? Because at that mileage it is urgent to clean the strainer & rotor-filter if your bike has it . The main disadvantage of centrifugal filter is that if it's capacity is full ( will eventually ) , it shall stop oil flow and cause catastrophic damage to engine . I have seen ceased crank bearings and gouged out camshaft lifters from this kind of lack of oil flow . There is no damage or any problem in opening the clutch-side cover , it is designed in that way to not touch the main engine parts . That's why manufacturer recommends it , they know very well whats necessary and what is not . A clutch service & friction-plate replacement which is not costly can make you really smile . Bike feels new again when you open throttle with new clutch