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**The Monk** · 02-12-2016, 11:54 AM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Query Approved

Taking all things into consideration, i would prefer a Carb bike. The throttle response is apparently much better on the Fi, especially on a cold engine, but currently i believe the Carb wins. What with the price difference.

**Divya Sharan** · 02-12-2016, 01:05 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Contrary to The Monk, I'd prefer the FI.

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

1. Efi and carb make nearly the same power and torque but one is expensive due to being new technology then why shouldn't I go for the carb version since I will be using the bike for 60% highway and 40% local roads going and coming back from work and some weekends fun rides with wifey. So no track racing or racing on public roads just purely driving at or around 70-90 mph and cornering thru the local traffic??

Who said FI is expensive to live with on a daily basis? It's less headache than people make it out to be.
Failure rates are abysmally low and that's a good thing.

2. Will the mileage be any difference for both the versions?

Yes, expect 2-5 kmpl extra on the FI depending upon the riding conditions/pattern.

3. Since Carbs are easy to Modify and Efi takes a laptop and some knowhow would taking a Carb over the Efi benefit modification wise? (Meaning I can tune the carb to be more performance oriented then the efi version? )

If you want more performance, save more money and get a more powerful stock motor. ECU can be flashed too, albeit it is slightly expensive and the fact that not many people do it well in India, I'd not advice it. Same goes for carb mods.

4. Is carb version less maintenance or the EFI?

In my experience, carb users keep crying 90% of the time that their AFR has been set wrong, idling is haywire, float valve is gone, diaphragm is ruptured etc. All of this requires money. I have owned an FI for 5 years and I have been away from all this drama this while.
What if the FI pump goes bust? Depends. I have repaired a pump by myself (not mine though). Most fuel pumps go bust because the carbon brushes inside its casing would have burst out, and replacing the same from an ordinary hardware shops solve the problem. But SVC only wants to replace stuff and people are too lazy to do anything by themselves.
In very rare cases, one may have to change the pump though and yes - that costs money. Pump failures due to technical issues are very very rare.
They fail mostly because fools ride with 100 Rs worth of fuel and run the pump dry!

5. What type of people will take the Carb version vs what type of people will take the Efi version?

Individual choice. Though quite a few people drift towards carb due to plain ignorance.

6. Whats the major difference other then listed on top in Carb vs Efi??

Nothing. CDI gets replaced with an ECU/ECM.

7. What would make the best buy for long run(4-6 years of ownership) Carb or EFI?

Depends upon you sir! How you ride, how you maintain. You have my observations above. All the best!

Replied inline.

**jetsetgo08** · 02-12-2016, 01:15 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

TVS Apache RTR 200 4V Carb Vs. FI (10 Differences)

driving at or around 70-90 mph

...I guess its kmph.

If service centers are in plenty like Hero Motocorp or one lives in a place where the climate is cold most of the times, one can risk with FI. Else Carb should be ok, Can be fixed by most mechanics.

Anyways, did RTR200 reach the showrooms?
I guess it will be April, by the time the auto journos do the full road tests and comparo.

Even I wanted a bike that could last next 5 years without niggles. I was waiting since November to buy a new Sub 1-lakh, 200+ cc bike, even the AutoExpo was not exciting w.r.t 2 wheelers .

**shadcool786** · 02-12-2016, 11:51 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Thanks for the quick input mods, jetsetgo08 but now that raises another question, I could use more input from others as well if possible. Also would like to point out that yes it's KMPH (sorry still have a habbit of typing Mph at times )

What if I wanted to change the exhaust and air filter to say a reputed company if I do it on a carb motor then I would have to re tweak the carb just a bit which is fairly easy and if I do it on a EFI motor then I would have to re-flash my Ecu to get proper performance is that correct ? Or Am I missing something in between?

I talked to Supreme TVS at Dhombhivli East and they said if I book now, they can get me the one with Carb, Tvs tyres, Nonabs Mid March 2016 with OTR at 98,500 Aprox. Which is a pretty good deal for this bike since the 180 with abs is costing 95,500 OTR as we speak. Personally I like new technology and ABS is great for a bike like this since no one in the market offer a dual-channel Abs system with RLP which can be switched off so I'm just waiting till Supreme TVS calls me up with an actual Date till then I have to decide if I want to go for a carb, tvs tyres, non abs or should I go for carb, tvs tyres, Abs, or Efi, tvs tyres, non abs or Efi, tvs tyres, abs..

Choices choices.. Well done TVS for the choices..

**jetsetgo08** · 02-13-2016, 11:35 AM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

What if I wanted to change the exhaust and air filter to say a reputed company if I do it on a carb motor then I would have to re tweak the carb just a bit which is fairly easy and if I do it on a EFI motor then I would have to re-flash my Ecu to get proper performance is that correct ? Or Am I missing something in between?

I am not the best to comment on what is the %age of performance improvement after modding. But an FI would require ECU remap, and carb would require tuning.
As most say here, Carb's are easier for DIY'ers. No software would be required for tuning,as in the case of ECU remap for FI.

But, if I were you I would go for the FI without any performance mods, as it was mentioned that FI was noticeably faster in first ride review by overdrive.
Fuel efficiency also could be marginally better. May be a test ride of both will help you decide.

BTW, as mentioned in many threads in Xbhp, performance mods can provoke the bike to throw tantrums.

**Naveen Saha** · 02-13-2016, 11:51 AM

Buying guide

I was going to buy apache rtr 180 but as the new apache 200 4v is launched I have decided to wait for it and buy the carb version of the apache 200. I have waited a long time for a bike and I don't want to make any mistake. A powerful peppy engine and a comfortable ride is all I seek. Please suggest and help me making a decision. Budget is 1lac.
THANKS

**jaggu_rtr** · 02-13-2016, 12:30 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

older apache 180 having vibration issue. As per test ride by auto journal apache 200 having less vibrations although full test ride awaires

**Divya Sharan** · 02-13-2016, 12:58 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

What if I wanted to change the exhaust and air filter to say a reputed company if I do it on a carb motor then I would have to re tweak the carb just a bit which is fairly easy and if I do it on a EFI motor then I would have to re-flash my Ecu to get proper performance is that correct ? Or Am I missing something in between?

I am assuming that the EFI in question will be primarily an open loop system, to keep prices in check.

Think of closed loop as a circle of information. The ECU uses info from 02 sensors to read how much oxygen is in the air and makes relevant adjustments for fuel flow.
Open loop means the ECU goes outside to "look up" tables, preset amount of air and fuel to calculate how much fuel to give the engine.

Closed loop is used for idle etc.
Open loop is mainly used when you hit a certain RPM or power band, WOT etc.

In terms of accuracy, closed loop > open loop.

The ECU adjusts the Air Fuel Ratio to try to get to a perfect mixture of 14.x/1. However, after performance modifications (performance filter, engine mods, exhaust mods), this ideal AFR is too lean and will lead to very high operating temperature, knocking, etc., which will eventually kill the engine. Open loop is then used to read the "ECU flash maps" and do customization. This is what the tuners charge for - those maps!

Doing just exhaust or air filter or engine mods alone is pointless. In such cases, the ECU makes minor adjustments by itself, but it is a waste of money. Either go all the way or stay stock.

**shadcool786** · 02-13-2016, 03:30 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by Divya Sharan View Post

Think of closed loop as a circle of information.

In terms of accuracy, closed loop > open loop.

Doing just exhaust or air filter or engine mods alone is pointless. In such cases, the ECU makes minor adjustments by itself, but it is a waste of money. Either go all the way or stay stock.

Wow amazing, this is what I was looking for brother a very detailed explanation of EFI. Tvs will be using a closed looped from Bosch so that's a good news. So I have decided that my next bike will be a Apache 200 with EFI, tvs tyres, and Abs system for sure. Don't want to be left behind in technology and safety. Thanks for everyone for assistance as always Xbhp never disappoints and please to keep providing any other valuable information would be amazing on this matter. Thanks once again.

**jetsetgo08** · 02-13-2016, 03:48 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by Divya Sharan View Post

I am assuming that the EFI in question will be primarily an open loop system, to keep prices in check.

Think of closed loop as a circle of information. The ECU uses info from 02 sensors to read how much oxygen is in the air and makes relevant adjustments for fuel flow.
Open loop means the ECU goes outside to "look up" tables, preset amount of air and fuel to calculate how much fuel to give the engine.

Closed loop is used for idle etc.
Open loop is mainly used when you hit a certain RPM or power band, WOT etc.

In terms of accuracy, closed loop > open loop.

The ECU adjusts the Air Fuel Ratio to try to get to a perfect mixture of 14.x/1. However, after performance modifications (performance filter, engine mods, exhaust mods), this ideal AFR is too lean and will lead to very high operating temperature, knocking, etc., which will eventually kill the engine. Open loop is then used to read the "ECU flash maps" and do customization. This is what the tuners charge for - those maps!

Doing just exhaust or air filter or engine mods alone is pointless. In such cases, the ECU makes minor adjustments by itself, but it is a waste of money. Either go all the way or stay stock.

Excellent

...Any idea on how the tuners get hold of the stock firmware and its settings residing in ECU? In my opinion, it's required in order to modify the default settings to get an optimal performance.

**shadcool786** · 02-13-2016, 05:44 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by jetsetgo08 View Post

Excellent

...Any idea on how the tuners get hold of the stock firmware and its settings residing in ECU? In my opinion, it's required in order to modify the default settings to get an optimal performance.

From what I know from the car ecu systems is that the default stock settings is in the Ecu along with malfunction settings if the bikes EFI light is on to safe the bike from damage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

**jetsetgo08** · 02-13-2016, 11:33 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

From what I know from the car ecu systems is that the default stock settings is in the Ecu along with malfunction settings if the bikes EFI light is on to safe the bike from damage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep...the ECU is flashed(with firmware) during production using a software on a PC/laptop. The firmware in this case is proprietary to Manufacturer, applies only to that particular model of car/bike.
My query was on how the custom tuners get to know the internals of this firmware and software? Any one working in Bosch or Continental can probably answer this.

This is an off-topic discussion and Mods can move the post to a different thread if required.

**shadcool786** · 02-14-2016, 08:37 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

I don't mind flashing ecu etc. When time comes I'm planing to ride it stock for at least a year or two or when warranty expires so then we will see and I don't mind spending the bucks if I find a good mechanic for ecu tuning either way my heart is fixed on a fully loaded Apache for now

**TVSian** · 02-15-2016, 11:13 PM

Re: Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Originally posted by shadcool786 View Post

I don't mind flashing ecu etc. When time comes I'm planing to ride it stock for at least a year or two or when warranty expires so then we will see and I don't mind spending the bucks if I find a good mechanic for ecu tuning either way my heart is fixed on a fully loaded Apache for now

Same here

The RTR 200 has impressed me.I might be going to the fully loaded top end RTR 200 next year

Carb	41.94%	26 votes
EFI	58.06%	36 votes

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Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

Options:- (TVS Apache RTR 200 4 V 2016) Carb or not to Carb?

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