The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

[neelesh4]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Superb accuracy but horrible ergonomics and serviceability issues. Bastard child of a number of other assault rifles and another typical f***up of the DRDO. Possibly THE worst weapon, per se, I have used. Will not touch an INSAS rifle with a barge pole. If I write any more, I will infringe the Official Secrets Act of which I am a signatory.

HAHA I like the way you said "Will not touch an INSAS rifle with a barge pole" the was a time when I use to feel that that was the best, but in due course of time have lost the track .

I think we are still stuck with the SLR at the moment...

[icemang]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

HAHA I like the way you said "Will not touch an INSAS rifle with a barge pole" the was a time when I use to feel that that was the best, but in due course of time have lost the track .

I think we are still stuck with the SLR at the moment...

The standard personal side arm of the rank and file of the Indian Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard), paramilitary forces (Rashtriya Rifles and Assam Rifles) and the CPOs (Central Police Organisations like the ITBP, BSF etc) is the 5.56 mm INSAS rifle; the 7.62 mm SLR has been phased out.

Our defence design and manufacture establishments thrive on re-inventing the wheel and ergo, the INSAS family of small arms. Many years ago, I had the opportunity of handling some foreign makes and I can tell you that their concept, design and manufacture seemed to be from a different world altogether. These rifles seemed to be an extension of my own hand rather than an artificial and unwieldy prosthesis like OUR side arms are. Holding, aiming and trigger operation should be one smooth, fluid and comfortable action. Sadly, the INSAS family does not have any of these attributes.

Like I am fond of saying, a rifle must come into your arms the way your lover does - naturally, sensually and smilingly. The shape, size and weight must be optimal and all the controls must be in their correct places. Only then will subsequent actions achieve the desired results at the target end

[GT007]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Xbhp - Weekly G2G

Day and Date - Wednesday - 09 October'2013

Venue - Grubshup Cafe, Law colg rd

Time - 8:30 pm

[princesirohi]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

@ icemang: INSAS was india's (or rather DRDO's) pretty much first attempt at designing and manufacturing such a rifle. and with not much previous experience in doing so.

obviously the first product will not be class leading or world's best.

every organization (pvt. or govt.) needs considerable amount of time to master new fields and technologies. even a company as ambitious as BAL even after trying for so many years or decades needed a foreign partner to produce its first globally competitive and world class product (if you agree - P200 NS and if you don't agree, it is still trying). in comparison DRDO is a govt. organization with its own problems.

in light of all this the product does its job pretty much ok, you may feel it is a below average product, but you must remember its the first attempt.

and i think INSAS program was not only limited to just one weapon or few variations of the same weapon in terms of ergonomics like folding butt etc, however it seems the work has not progressed as desired to develop a complete family of weapons with interchangeable ammunition or something of that sort.

this is not to counter your view, but just what i recollect as i used to actively follow defence developments long ago....then lost track...ofcourse you as a user are definitely in a much better position to comment on it, but as a first attempt it was not useless.

correct me if i am wrong.

[neil9381]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Hope Tata and others involved in FINSAS project complete their work Asap....Initial details look promising
I have been waiting to see updates on it but nothing is cropped up yet...,Guess this project has multi caliber weapon ,me too a defence enthusiast follow various websites..

I have done rifle shooting in college and were in pathetic condition except for one rifle...

[icemang]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Hope Tata and others involved in FINSAS project complete their work Asap....Initial details look promising
I have been waiting to see updates on it but nothing is cropped up yet...,Guess this project has multi caliber weapon ,me too a defence enthusiast follow various websites..

I have done rifle shooting in college and were in pathetic condition except for one rifle...

@neil9381. The TATAs were out of the project almost from the very beginning for reasons we know very well. As to multi caliber, do read my response to princesirohi.

@ icemang: INSAS was india's (or rather DRDO's) pretty much first attempt at designing and manufacturing such a rifle. and with not much previous experience in doing so.

obviously the first product will not be class leading or world's best.

every organization (pvt. or govt.) needs considerable amount of time to master new fields and technologies. even a company as ambitious as BAL even after trying for so many years or decades needed a foreign partner to produce its first globally competitive and world class product (if you agree - P200 NS and if you don't agree, it is still trying). in comparison DRDO is a govt. organization with its own problems.

in light of all this the product does its job pretty much ok, you may feel it is a below average product, but you must remember its the first attempt.

and i think INSAS program was not only limited to just one weapon or few variations of the same weapon in terms of ergonomics like folding butt etc, however it seems the work has not progressed as desired to develop a complete family of weapons with interchangeable ammunition or something of that sort.

this is not to counter your view, but just what i recollect as i used to actively follow defence developments long ago....then lost track...ofcourse you as a user are definitely in a much better position to comment on it, but as a first attempt it was not useless.

correct me if i am wrong.

@princesirohi. I beg to disagree. Firstly, in the 20th and 21st century, designing and manufacturing a simple assault rifle is simpler than designing a motorcycle. Secondly, if you had been speaking of ballistic missiles i.e. rocket science, I would have agreed with you but only partially - ISRO comes to mind. But here, we are talking about a simple assault rifle based small arms family. The DRDO and Ordnance Factories have been involved in the supply of all arms (other than those bought off the shelf e.g. Bofors) to the armed forces till date. Allow me to elaborate.

The FINSAS project was flawed at the very conceptual stage itself. It envisaged a family of small arms comprising three individual weapons based on the 5.56 mm ball ammunition (the carbine, the semi-automatic assault rifle and the light machine gun) with more than 80% interoperability of parts. The concept of interoperability had been quite popular in the weapons industry of the 70s and 80s till it was discarded for its obvious flaws. Yet, DRDO persisted with its efforts to design the system. Till date, the carbine has not seen the light of day while persistent problems in the rifle and LMG continue to plague the users.

During the 80s, the Army had evaluated a number of foreign rifles. The HK-33, M-16, the Steyr family, the SAR-21 et al. None were approved by the DRDO on various specious grounds - the deal with Singapore for the SAR-21 rifle and Ultimax LMG (with the Tatas as one of the parties) stalled as the Singies were not happy with DRDO's bureaucratic read tape. I have personally seen and handled these weapons and boy, was it like letting a kid loose in a candy shop. The bull pup designs were especially good...

When I first saw the INSAS rifle in the early 90s, I was shocked at the pathetic standard of manufacture and the design that had pre-dated it. It seemed to me to be a contraption fabricated in the friendly neighbourhood workshop, it was that bad. Metal parts (whether stamped or machined) were crudely turned out, the plastics were shoddy, the assembly felt loose, small parts broke off randomly... And these were the minor issues. There were a couple of truly critical issues with the weapon which endangered the user seriously and my knowledge of weapons indicated to me that these were a function of wrong design at the drawing board stage.

The few alterations/rectifications/modifications over the years have been incorporated to make the weapon conform to the original design QR rather than provide incremental improvements and this state of affairs has forced the armed forces to look elsewhere.

The weapon is not useless but viewing it through the prism of overall user experience makes it a costly and at times potentially dangerous liability. Some day, perhaps, I could show you what I mean on the actual equipment.

A query to mods: Are subjects of this nature considered OT on the forum? Or can members write about various matters of interest in the way of having an on-line chat/discussion/argument/debate?

[trustvishwas]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

A query to mods: Are subjects of this nature considered OT on the forum? Or can members write about various matters of interest in the way of having an on-line chat/discussion/argument/debate?

1. I am neither a moderator nor a pseudo moderator (we have couple of them here)
2. This thread is for OT only. Biking related topics are forbidden here
3. Please continue this discussion, we all might get some knowledge in a topic un-approached by many of us.
4. Are you still in Rajkot and if yes, are the canteens there wet? (need to really know this)

[icemang]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

1. I am neither a moderator nor a pseudo moderator (we have couple of them here)
2. This thread is for OT only. Biking related topics are forbidden here
3. Please continue this discussion, we all might get some knowledge in a topic un-approached by many of us.
4. Are you still in Rajkot and if yes, are the canteens there wet? (need to really know this)

[MENTION=23857]trustvishwas[/MENTION]. Thanks for the disclaimer

I am still posted to Rajkot but presently in the MH at Ahmedabad for my medical exams. Will be posted out soon.

There is an NCC Group HQ CSD outlet at Rajkot which IS wet but only for people with the proper "tongues", if you know what I mean. Today, no person can get even a packet of biscuits from the CSD without the CSD smart card. Plus there are quantitative and monetary ceilings too. We serving personnel have only ourselves to blame for the increased stringency. If you know anybody at Rajkot, he/she can get you something wet. Anything you are particularly interested in, let me know, I shall try.

[niranjanvaidya]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

@trustvishwas. Thanks for the disclaimer

I am still posted to Rajkot but presently in the MH at Ahmedabad for my medical exams. Will be posted out soon.

There is an NCC Group HQ CSD outlet at Rajkot which IS wet but only for people with the proper "tongues", if you know what I mean. Today, no person can get even a packet of biscuits from the CSD without the CSD smart card. Plus there are quantitative and monetary ceilings too. We serving personnel have only ourselves to blame for the increased stringency. If you know anybody at Rajkot, he/she can get you something wet. Anything you are particularly interested in, let me know, I shall try.

1. The topic in discussion here is much better than the regular bakar and leg pulling. As such, even though this is a motorcycling forum, a topic of interest can be surely discussed in an offline and localized thread.

2. The reply to prince is a reflection of all defense projects till date. Take the LCA, MBT and even the Aircraft carrier or the submarine project. We are way behind in terms of timelines, delivery and effectiveness. The LCA project was taken up ambitiously and we are not even close to a production run after almost three decades of development and several thousands of crores of tax payers money. MBT is a joke with a developmental time of almost 37 years and an overrun on the budget to the tune of 20 times the original budget Rs. 15.5 crores vs Rs. 300 crores.
The story with the Naval wing is the same and expected to swindle more of tax payers money. Admiral Gorshkov a.k.a Vikramaditya has been a long one with the Russians (along with our good khadi clad traitors) sucking out the life of this country.
Wish something could be done to help out this country

[trustvishwas]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Anything you are particularly interested in, let me know, I shall try.

Anything above 70% proof / 40% w/v is good

My two cents : I think only project we would be proud of would be that of missiles.

[princesirohi]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

there are a lot of things and lot of factors accounting to DRDO's present state of research programs, far beyond the scope of this discussion.

glad that we got some 1st hand views on insas from you [MENTION=33779]icemang[/MENTION].

on a side note, i want to know- which is the cheapest and reliable revolver available in india without considering accuracy as a prime parameter.

[rx100.7050]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

You have a VM, icemang

[trustvishwas]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

You have a VM, icemang

You are wrong on at least one count. I am considered a loose cannon by most

[icemang]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

Anything above 70% proof / 40% w/v is good

My two cents : I think only project we would be proud of would be that of missiles.

[MENTION=23857]trustvishwas[/MENTION]. AFAIK, the permissible limits for CSD sale alcohol is an ABV of 42.8% and a proof of 85.6%. All alcohol sold from the CSD matches this exactly. And there is little variety. At times, I myself purchase my hooch from the local vend as I get bored of the standard stuff I have swigged since my teens (puhlease don't tell my mom this)

I would not be too sure about the military missiles. Akash, Nag... all spectacular failures.

there are a lot of things and lot of factors accounting to DRDO's present state of research programs, far beyond the scope of this discussion.

glad that we got some 1st hand views on insas from you @icemang.

on a side note, i want to know- which is the cheapest and reliable revolver available in india without considering accuracy as a prime parameter.

[MENTION=15693]princesirohi[/MENTION]. Now what the friggin' hell are you planning to do with such a weapon, old boy? You need to have reasonable accuracy even to blow your own head off leave alone causing lesser damage doing something else!

Okay, on a serious note, the cheapest AND reliable revolver would be the Smith and Wesson rip-off made by the Ordnance Factory Board. Last I heard it costed some 36K. You need a license to purchase it. This is going by the legal route. On the other hand, there are similar weapons made in UP which can be procured and used illegally. You need to remember the 11th Commandment, though, before going this way. And if you can cough up the dough, the sky is the limit.

You have a VM, icemang

[MENTION=11587]rx100.7050[/MENTION]. I have replied to it. Your suggestions are welcome.

[princesirohi]

Re: The Official Pune Offline Meet(G2G) Thread

...
@princesirohi. Now what the friggin' hell are you planning to do with such a weapon, old boy? You need to have reasonable accuracy even to blow your own head off leave alone causing lesser damage doing something else!

Okay, on a serious note, the cheapest AND reliable revolver would be the Smith and Wesson rip-off made by the Ordnance Factory Board. Last I heard it costed some 36K. You need a license to purchase it. This is going by the legal route. On the other hand, there are similar weapons made in UP which can be procured and used illegally. You need to remember the 11th Commandment, though, before going this way. And if you can cough up the dough, the sky is the limit.
...

hmmnn.. .. ok, so same as i guessed, OFB revolver.

sad that there are not much affordable options available in india.

i want it for self defence, since i feel the unlawful and rogue elements are increasing everyday in our society.

and accuracy is not needed coz, sometimes a single shot fired in air may do the job or even if the bullet lands 3-4 inches away from desired target (say from 10 feet distance), it will still do the job, unless you are trying to hit bulls eye.

i do not want to carry a desi katta, i know its pros and cons ( my native place is U.P.)

other option is to carry a knife, but its complicated..... and more often will not do the job ..