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Counter Steering

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  • #1

    Counter Steering

    Posting Replies to this Article

    Want to add to this article? Great! But please don't start repeating what has already been stated here. And people who post subsequent to additions by others are advised to go through these additional posts too and not repeat whatever has already been said.
    • Only comments which add on value to the article will be approved.
    • You may add on more points, pointers to the subject relating to this article.
    Last edited by Old Fox; 12-29-2009, 05:16 PM. Reason: Illustration added
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  • #2
    Sorry if it is a silly doubt... im not understanding it...

    see yesterday i skid and fell . reason.. one lady crossed in middle of the road.

    she approached from right and if i have to escape i have some space in the left side of the road. which even i tried but couldnt do it. panicked and applied brakes which made me to fall down

    my question.. if you push right obviously the wheel will turn to left and my bike will go left...

    how it will go right if i push right... may be if i pull from left the bike will turn left.
    Rides: HH SPl (2000-2005) | TVS Vic GLX (2005-2010) | S GS150 R (Current)

    Gears: Scoyco JK -17 | Cramster Twister | Cramster Bionics | Vega Boolean

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rajesh1136 View Post
      my question.. if you push right obviously the wheel will turn to left and my bike will go left...

      how it will go right if i push right... may be if i pull from left the bike will turn left.
      Thats the common logic. However, Counter-steering, as explained above, is very much a reality and easy to execute. Give it a try on a clear stretch of road, you'll know for yourself!

      YouTube - Swerve Technique on Motorcycle (Countersteering)
      To conquer fear, you must become fear!

      Comment

      • #4
        counter steering is something you can't understand in theory. The same phenomena is experienced by us in our daily biking dose but still most of the bikers are unaware of it. Counter-steering is experienced at a high speed because of which the bike leans. At low speed say like 40kmph the effect will be really low and you couldn't tell if you are on it. Take your bike around 60km/h on a fine day with clear road and try to push the left handle bar. You will see the bike starts leaning to the left and moving to the left, the vice-versa is also true. It is directly propositional to the speed.

        Try It, Learn IT and RIDE SAFE.... :-)

        Regards,
        Shantonil
        Always Wear A HELMET,sigpic Everybody does not has the comfort to replace his HEAD

        Shaan

        Comment

        • #5
          Sorry about your accident, I hope you are all right.

          You should try to lean towards the turn to turn faster while counter-steering. (Counter-steering essentially makes the whole bike lean, so it helps if you yourself shift your weight a bit towards the turn, check MotoGP)

          When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, counter-steering is a method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually via the handlebars, in the opposite (counter) direction. This moves the pivot point (the wheels' contact patches) out from under the center of mass to establish the lean angle for a turn. While necessary at all speeds, the need to counter-steer becomes more noticeable as speed increases.

          Hence, to turn to the right, the rider first throws the bike off balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this straight line

          As the desired angle is approached, the front wheel must then be steered into the turn to maintain that angle or the bike will continue to lean with gravity, increasing in rate, until the side contacts the ground. This process usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry of the steering system of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean.

          The actual torque the rider must apply to the handlebars in order to maintain a steady-state turn is a complex function of bike geometry, mass distribution, rider position, turn radius, and forward speed. At low speeds, the steering torque necessary from the rider is usually negative, that is opposite the direction of the turn, even when the steering angle is in the direction of the turn. At higher speeds, the direction of the necessary input torque often becomes positive, that is in the same direction as the turn.
          Source: Wikipedia, Our Mighty Saviour


          Maybe these two videos will help you understand counter-steering better. The first one explains the theory and the second one (fast forward to about 2:20 min) is just a demo.

          YouTube - Mid-speed countersteering
          YouTube - Counter Steering - How to Ride a Motorbike - Part 3

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by rajesh1136 View Post
            Sorry if it is a silly doubt... im not understanding it...

            see yesterday i skid and fell . reason.. one lady crossed in middle of the road.

            she approached from right and if i have to escape i have some space in the left side of the road. which even i tried but couldnt do it. panicked and applied brakes which made me to fall down

            my question.. if you push right obviously the wheel will turn to left and my bike will go left...

            how it will go right if i push right... may be if i pull from left the bike will turn left.
            nope..its different for motorcycles. Any two wheels..even the bicycles...
            the best advice is to try it. Wear gear..go slow. At any speed above 30kmph slightly push your bar with your right hand(motioning the handle bar to left). You will lean to right and start turning right.

            If you are riding a motorcycle you are already doing it. Its just that you are doing it unknowingly. Doing it knowingly changes your riding drastically and you start improving by leaps and bounds.
            sigpic
            when i ride bullet before my bullet was solid condition but i once race with a Ceilo car and my engine size. mechancic say bullet is good bike but no racing. it is good for three people and very powerful.
            one day when i become rich i but ducati and then I race with cars. not now.
            kamlesh kanda
            NO PACE TOO SLOW
            IF you're at all going to be a respectable rider one day, leave your pride at the "door."

            Comment

            • #7
              Correct me if I am wrong. The trail is the distance between the steering stem/neck axis and axis of the forks. The diagram doesnt show any steering axis.

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by niaz_be View Post
                Correct me if I am wrong. The trail is the distance between the steering stem/neck axis and axis of the forks. The diagram doesnt show any steering axis.
                no, trail is the distance between points on ground plane; where steering axis meets ground and verticle line passing through contact point of front wheel. the above diagram shows it correctly.

                cruiser bikes(avenger, enticer) has more trail than sport bikes (pulsar, karizma). change in trail value can affect steering (cornering), stright line stability, braking ability of bike. for more technical info try getting motorcycle dynamics book by vittore-cossaltire (not sure about authors name spelling, sorry)
                cheers..
                got bhp?? oh yeah..its Xbhp

                Comment

                • #9
                  ^^Hey.. either ways... both the angles are same right ? I mean.. by geometry rules and stuff.
                  - You spend half your life before you realize your are ordinary, you then, either are too lazy to change or you do the extraordinary and change the world!

                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Killer
                    @Avinrichards - No man they're not the same
                    how come? the line that you traced(steering axis) and the line in the first post are always parallel right? if yes, then the rake angle shouldn't differ, only the trail length should differ.
                    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough - Albert Einstein

                    I think i know less than what you think i know.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gautam_k View Post
                      how come? the line that you traced(steering axis) and the line in the first post are always parallel right? if yes, then the rake angle shouldn't differ, only the trail length should differ.
                      That was the same geometry that got me thinking

                      Originally posted by Killer
                      @Avinrichards - No man they're not the same
                      Your call again.
                      Last edited by avinrichards; 10-25-2010, 02:39 AM.
                      - You spend half your life before you realize your are ordinary, you then, either are too lazy to change or you do the extraordinary and change the world!

                      sigpic

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        my bad guys...alchohol talking at night...thanks for correcting me
                        http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
                        www.youtube.com/killer

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by avinrichards View Post
                          ^^Hey.. either ways... both the angles are same right ? I mean.. by geometry rules and stuff.
                          no mate, they aren't two angles, but two different geometrical terms (rake is the angle and trail is the distance)
                          got bhp?? oh yeah..its Xbhp

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by satya_3d View Post
                            no mate, they aren't two angles, but two different geometrical terms (rake is the angle and trail is the distance)
                            he was referring to the rake angles in the first fig and the corrected figure
                            If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough - Albert Einstein

                            I think i know less than what you think i know.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rajesh1136 View Post
                              Sorry if it is a silly doubt... im not understanding it...

                              see yesterday i skid and fell . reason.. one lady crossed in middle of the road.

                              she approached from right and if i have to escape i have some space in the left side of the road. which even i tried but couldnt do it. panicked and applied brakes which made me to fall down

                              my question.. if you push right obviously the wheel will turn to left and my bike will go left...

                              how it will go right if i push right... may be if i pull from left the bike will turn left.
                              No. You're wrong. Imagine drifting in a car. Since it has 4 wheels, taking a turn at normal speed, say a fast left turn, you turn the steering wheel left. But go into that turn too fast and you might end up in big trouble. But if you could drift out of it, i.e., turning the steering to the right after a slight hint of anti-clockwise rotation to the steering wheel(when in the driver's seat), the car goes to the left. But you have to have the right speed, skill, etc. to do that in a car.
                              Same applies to the bike. I'm sure you've experienced being pushed to the right when you turn too fast to the left in a car or vice-versa. That's what happens on a bike too, i.e., you are pushed to the right if you push the handle bar on the right but you actually tend to turn right when you do so. But to help corner better and safer at high speed on a bike, you shift your body to the right yourself(consciously) and are actually counter steering with the handle bar turned slightly to the left and negotiating a right turn, but unable to detect it because that bit is hard to explain :-P .
                              Last edited by ironman; 10-28-2010, 07:54 PM.
                              Riding is a way of life. Sometimes, it might also be a way of giving life. So Ride safe. In both contexts.

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