General SBK Discussion Thread

[TenHut]

They are mostly hand built which requires a lot of time as opposed to how jap bikes are built and assembled, automation!

Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

Do you know that ducatis are always the lightest bikes in their respective classes? i own a 1198s which weights 169kg, compare that to any other bike including the s1000rr (183kg) .The 1198s is closest to its WSBK counterpart than any other manufacturer out there.

Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.

I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration. That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !

Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.

by the same logic why would anyone buy a honda cbr1000rr/r1/zx-10r/ when the bmw has much more of everything and costs about the same?

yes, thats what is happening. So the others will compete now. Like everybody has since aeons. 2011 ZX10R with its gizmos and shit loads of HP is rumoured to be the BMW killer isnt it ?

p.s. i'm happy paying for brand name when performance on the street really is a moot point,

now thats a point I cant argue against. Performance on the street really is a moot point. Well said.

wait... was that a sarcastic comment when you said "twice the performance at half the price" ?

no that was just a comment to get your attention

[AsimB]

TenHut;494650]Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

Well whether you "buy" that argument on not is a different issue but yes hand built is more expensive than robot built. That is what makes them unique. I think everyone who complains that ducatis arent worth the money will buy a ducati if they had a few $$ more to spare

I agree that the ducatis are over priced in India, 4x times the price than the US. I think its ridiculous too.


Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.


Lets say we have a base 1198. The price difference between the liter bikes and the base 1198 is only $3000, which isnt a lot. Now if you tune the shit out of the 1198 youl get something much better :P and the brakes on the 1198 are already much superior than the others and you dont have to spend any money trying to make it any more lighter than it already is.

As for the S the DTC itself is worth close to 5k. And yes it does make a difference.


I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration.


I agree, it has a lot to do with the rider's capabilities. What I'd meant was you take the 1198 and any other bike going at the same pace into a turn, coming out of that turn the bike with more torque will pull harder.


That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !


It is definitely not a wrong interpretation! They have frictional losses like any other inline 4, even if the losses are more the torque is still much higher. See the attached images. The twin doesnt just give you torque down low, it has higher torque all the way upto 10,000rpm. I didnt understand what you meant by jap bikes give an involved fast ride? You'l need to be more involved to go that fast on a twin with that much torque


Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.


I agree everyone has their own opinion. And i believe the 1198 is worth every penny (not in India), not just performance wise but also the look and finish of the bike. I havent seen any bike come close. The 1198s is the way to go

[superjd]

Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

so its the steering damper that has you all angry... last i checked not many 600cc bikes have a stock steering damper as far as i see the supersport/sbk market in india is still nascent and as demand increases prices come down be it a ducati or anything else.

Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Add in ohlins, brembos, etc and yes price does come close, carbon fibre is not cheap...

It's a small company, profit has to made somehow...
if the brand sells why not charge for it? ... apple does the same thing... that's business 101

The jap companies have massive automobile/heavy industries cash cows to rely on ... same with bmw

As i see it ducati is a motorcycle racing company that decided to make and sell street bikes for extra money on the side .. and the jap companies are mass producers that got into racing, a fine example of that is inventory from 2009 is listed at ridiculously cheap prices but ducatis are still almost at the same prices as before, at this point it does make it difficult to not take a second look at a jap bike which now is almost at half the cost of a ducati.

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.

I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration. That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !

Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.

actually i prefer them to have the 'i am elite attitude', besides attitude is displayed by people... not by the company, and i've met people having jap bikes with different yet similar irritating attitudes..

my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..

.. in fact they should charge more for something so beautiful... kinda around the price range of a bimota or a mv agusta tamburini ... at the very least you won't have lots of similar bikes running around kinda like the jap ones

yes, thats what is happening. So the others will compete now. Like everybody has since aeons. 2011 ZX10R with its gizmos and shit loads of HP is rumoured to be the BMW killer isnt it ?

indeed competition is good...

now thats a point I cant argue against. Performance on the street really is a moot point. Well said.

so its decided them.. a ducati for road use .. a jap bike for track use?

no that was just a comment to get your attention

really? i don't owe you money do i?

[Streetfighter]

Tenhut, please revisit your statement about the cb and sf; cb has twice the power (or performance) at half the price? Are you drunk? I don't care about s1000rr or cbr or r1; why are you even comparing them to an 848, not in the same class.

Price drop has reasons; duties, exchange rate, increase sales, etc. And yes the dealer is partly to blame but they deal in the top of the range products (cars, clothes, lifestyle products) in their class so they have got this attitude.

It seems, like already pointed out above, you just have an issue with the 848 not having a steering damper. Buy one damn it, actually I'll gift you one if you purchase an 848. And the attitude ain't going anywhere anytime soon, wait for the bimmer buddy, it is coming soon. I doubt it will be at the Japanese price range though. We'll wait for a new thread to hear you crib about that too; perhaps no adjustable frame?

Yeah I do have an attitude, for some it is pretty bad, trust me it has nothing to do with Ducati.

[Streetfighter]

CBR1000RR Fireblade !
Now a street fighter !

Oh, and you need to get your facts right; it's a CB1000R. Xcess version, done by an italian design house.

It does look sweet and did look sweet 2 to 3 years ago too.

I had paid up for a CB1000r as ducati were making empty promises about delivery; delivery of the cb was 15 days away and got a call from ducati that the crates have arrived. As the crate opened I was around 20 ft behind and one look at it floored me. After seeing the sf there is no way I could buy the cb.

Since you choose to ignore my question about power, please let me educate you. The sf is lighter, faster (torque and bhp throughout the rev range) and infinitely better looking than a cb (to me at least; the cb looks like a pulsar, fz15).

I think you got confused between the cbr1000rr and the cb1000r. Visit the honda website and learn about the differences.

[kachhhing]

Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?

lol..... surely a case of sour grapes

[kachhhing]

[QUOTE=TenHut;494331]I dont mind paying the premium. But I do mind if the premium is for the brand alone and not for performance.

how many people who buy these bikes take them to the track??? stats say 9%

e.g : S1000RR will cost roughly the same as an 848
848 doesnt even have a steering damper and needless to say the S1000RR has every god damn thing out there. The BMW is a true exotic bike.

u have to admit..... the beemer doesnt look half as good as the 848, its just a gorgeous machine.
i buy my bikes for the looks and yes decent performance

[kachhhing]

I own a 696 and a 1198s and ive ridden many jap bikes and I completely disagree.

Ducati are priced so high not only because of brand name! Do you know that ducatis are not mass produced like the japanese sport bikes? They are mostly hand built which requires a lot of time as opposed to how jap bikes are built and assembled, automation!

Do you know that ducatis are always the lightest bikes in their respective classes? i own a 1198s which weights 169kg, compare that to any other bike including the s1000rr (183kg) and youl know what im talking about. The vtwins have more torque to weight than any other bikes, 97lb-ft @ 8000rpm for the 1198 vs the 82.5 lb-ft @ 9,750 rpm for the bmw. The torque peaks well before on the 1198. Do you know what that means? That means coming out of a corner the 1198 will smoke the bmw. The same goes with the bhp, you have more horses on tap on the 1198 at very low rpms! I agree that the max is lower on the 1198, but the difference in torque makes up for it. The 1198s is closest to its WSBK counterpart than any other manufacturer out there.

About the price, dont compare the bmw to the 848 or the 1198. Compare it to the other jap bikes, its priced similar to all other liter bikes but has so much more to offer. Whys that? I believe bmw is taking a loss on the s1000rr since theyre entering an area where japs and italians have dominated for the last god knows how many years and they want to prove they can make equally good bikes.

i dont buy the hand built shit !!! it is criminal to charge a premium for the bike and not have all the electronic / hydrolic aid the other bikes have , but having said that, the dukes build their bikes to sell...... damper or no damper.. they do sell !! so am sure they arent complaining , neither do any of the duke owners

[kachhhing]

Ducati slashed their prices like nuts out here. 848 got cheaper by 3.5 lakhs OTR. You wanna guess where that extra money was going earlier ? Into the ducati "charge the customer for brand" account. Cmon dude...whether its made by hand or robot..plonk in a steering damper..the thing does good speeds...lack of one on a 17 lakhs bike cannot be justified. If running out of hands get a robot maybe or just get more hands. I dont buy the 'hand built' argument.

Step 1 : Buy a BMW..or any jap bike.
Step 2 : Now race tune the shit out of it and carbon fibre the thing black.
Step 3 : See how light it is now ! See how much power it now makes ! See how much torque it now makes !
Step 4 : Now see if it costed you more than the price of 1198S ?

Point is, if you put the extra money on a jap bike or a BMW cause you wanna make it close to a WSBK bike you will end up with something that rapes the track and you could buy yourselves shit loads of slicks and still have some money left over. So the price at which 1198S stands you cant really compare it to stock bikes ! 1198S is not stock, it is to ducati what AMG is to Mercedes.

I have ridden 22 laps at hockenheim on the 1198S.
The torque advantage you speak of doesnt guarantee you a good drive out a corner. You still have to work towards getting a good drive just as much as you have to work on any other engine configuration. That Vtwins make more torque is also a wrong interpretation. They also have highest frictional power losses. A twin gives you a more relaxed fast ride due to the torque down low while the japs give you an involved fast ride. Common word for both being : fast !

Take my opinion as you would of anyone random on the street. Everyone has theirs...I am just voicing it for I love to compare bikes...my next bike is a 1198S so I aint saying they should stop making bikes..I am just saying they should come out of that 'I am elite' attitude and give me my moneys worth.


yes, thats what is happening. So the others will compete now. Like everybody has since aeons. 2011 ZX10R with its gizmos and shit loads of HP is rumoured to be the BMW killer isnt it ?


now thats a point I cant argue against. Performance on the street really is a moot point. Well said.


no that was just a comment to get your attention

Agree, u spend some extra moolah on the beemer and u will have a duke breaker...... but when u sell the bike u wont get any money back for all the extra stuff on the bike.
while when u sell the duke u will always make the money back

[kachhhing]

I think you got confused between the cbr1000rr and the cb1000r. Visit the honda website and learn about the differences.[/QUOTE]

aw come on dude !!! now thats being nasty......
but i agree.. one look at the streetfighter is enough to floor any one
one question, i fu r strictly gonna ride ur bikes on mumbai roads, would u rather have a CB or a SF?
I would go with what my heart than my head and go for the SF, cuz personally i love the attitude the bike has.... my 2 cents of course !!

[TenHut]

I don't care about s1000rr or cbr or r1; why are you even comparing them to an 848, not in the same class.

who is comparing them. I am pointing out the fact that they cost the same...and that they are not in the same class IS EXACTLY my issue. They cost the same and are nowhere close to each other in performance.

Price drop has reasons; duties, exchange rate, increase sales, etc.

No the price drop wasnt due to duties or exhange rates nor due to increased sales.

It seems, like already pointed out above, you just have an issue with the 848 not having a steering damper.

No, the 848 not having a steering damper is merely an example. I would never buy that bike...

We'll wait for a new thread to hear you crib about that too; perhaps no adjustable frame?

If the BMW decides to unethically loot by dangling the brand carrot, hell yes I will then make another thread to crib about it. Because thats not business 101 as someone pointed out. Thats trying to get away by exploiting the elitist thinkers amongst the masses perhaps !
When you say riding a Ducati feels different and better than the jap bikes which are found on the roads by the ton, I giggle. It comes accross to me as "hey mine maybe small, but I am glad its unique"

Sorry dude, I ride 3 Jap bikes but I guess some of the attitude brushed onto me too

TenHut;494650] I think everyone who complains that ducatis arent worth the money will buy a ducati if they had a few $$ more to spare

Lemme give you my example...i was refraining from touching these topics as one has to be gay to make such a conversation but what the hell. As long as its taken the right way.
I have spent an amount twice the price(indian price) of a 1198S onto my biking in a single year. I went ahead and invested heavily in California Superbike Schooling sessions and also in random trackday abroad and on 3 bikes one of which I even managed to total in 21 days like a total noob.
But I did not buy the 1198S..I am still only pondering whether I should buy it or spend that money on riding schools.
So everyone who complains isnt doing so for the grapes are sour or they dont have the $$ to spare. On the contrary I think some Ducati owners are too proud to admit that their precious $$ could have been better spent somewhere else. This will sound very unfair as this may not be applicable to you but is applicable to most Ducati owners out there.

I agree, it has a lot to do with the rider's capabilities. What I'd meant was you take the 1198 and any other bike going at the same pace into a turn, coming out of that turn the bike with more torque will pull harder.

Again the reason why you find torque down low on a twin and up high on a four has nothign to do with the fact that they are twins or fours. Engine layout isnt determining the torque you are so loving on your 1198S.
Its the intake-charge velocity which is determining that. So if you take a 1198S which has been worked on and tuned for the tracks and compare its graphs to a stock inline four you will think the 1198S is hauling ass. Now if you decrease the intake charge velocity on the same four..put into the head the largest and the lightest valves you will have a four with more torque than the twin and an even more HP for the tracks. So dont generalise saying twins have more power off the turns. You are comparing a stock bike to a not stock bike when talkign about torque out the corners and therein lies the fallacy.

It is definitely not a wrong interpretation! They have frictional losses like any other inline 4, even if the losses are more the torque is still much higher. See the attached images. The twin doesnt just give you torque down low, it has higher torque all the way upto 10,000rpm.

Publore says they have you more torque. Also twins have more frictional losses in the valve train, thanks to needing two sets of slightly larger cams, two cam chains, stiffer springs pushing on larger, heavier valves moving through more lift and, of course, all the bearings necessary to support all the extra hardware.
Add to that the fact that, the frictional losses incease by the square in relation to cam rotation speed- and remember, you have four cams pushing on the bigger valves and hardwarepunches all the right feel-good buttons and hence I am pondering of buying one.
But I aint buying one cause its got better torque down low or better drive out a corner..

I think, the truth of the matter is that it depends on your riding style. A twin does not have a sudden power band. The power comes on straight and linear...so no sudden surprises. A lazy rider will like this, as was said, you really don't need to worry about what gear you're in comming out of the corner. Hit the gas and go. An I4 takes a little more thought, if you hit the gas at any point and you're in the right gear you're gonna either flip the sucker, loose traction and go ditch surfing, or bog down and cruise out of the corner like grandma with a trailer. Although apply a nice smooth throttle, in the right gear, and you leave the twin wondering where you went...if you've got the skill to pull it off.

Thats what I meant when I said the twin is a relaxed fast ride while the inline a more involved fast ride.

Now twins vs inlines wasnt the discussion at all.
My point was the Ducs are an overkill when it comes to price for the performance they have to offer. And then the publore which always makes twins seem like they are this creation of god and gibberish. It is a lifestyle product at this price..thats about it. Nothing else.

All said and done I am loving this discussion...finally something better than
"oh congrats on your nice bike"
"nice I love this bike "
"oh wow awesome gear.."
"the front end is ugly"
"the front end looks like megatron"

We are all riders...we ride for pleasure and we discuss for enlarging our perspectives...and so what if we throw in a few tantrums and trolls while we are at it. Thats the fun part of posting online...

[TenHut]

Oh, and you need to get your facts right; it's a CB1000R. Xcess version, done by an italian design house.

I think you got confused between the cbr1000rr and the cb1000r. Visit the honda website and learn about the differences.

I ride a grandRR myself and have test ridden the Cb1000R when I was at the showroom buying the 1000RR
If you notice the picture i posted is called " guessbike "
It was posted as not many know of CB1000R Xess ( not Xcess) and hence the title " CBR1000RR now a street fighter " was thrown in mislead on purpose...thats why "guess bike"
The line " twice the performance at half the price" was a troll....and was not used specifically to compare CB vs SF but to compare bikes vs Ducatis in general.

Are you answered ?

[sheelpriye]

Hey Hey Hey! Good read!

Now I am sure where I would get a fix for my high.

[darkknight]

Hey Hey Hey! Good read!

Now I am sure where I would get a fix for my high.

Indeed my man indeed.
Doesn't get better than this

[niranjanvaidya]

Hey Hey Hey! Good read!

Now I am sure where I would get a fix for my high.

hahahaha...touche!!