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500cc vs 220cc.....

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Saerius View Post
    uhm 'what all' is non standard on the 535 then?
    Height / Length is higher than standard - The same is available online
    Wide Handle Bar
    Weight - little more than standard
    Lighter Crank
    Bigger Head

    Otherwise rest all are the same
    Never Give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

    Cheers
    Ramesh Madhavan

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rameshmadhavan View Post
      Height / Length is higher than standard - The same is available online
      Wide Handle Bar
      Weight - little more than standard
      Lighter Crank
      Bigger Head

      Otherwise rest all are the same
      A lighter crank like the ones from post '78 till 2003 or from the newer generation of cranks (uce ones)??
      Or are they completely different ones/a one off crank??

      and just a bigger head? has it got some work done to the valves, guides seats, etc?
      When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Saerius View Post
        A lighter crank like the ones from post '78 till 2003 or from the newer generation of cranks (uce ones)??
        Or are they completely different ones/a one off crank??

        and just a bigger head? has it got some work done to the valves, guides seats, etc?
        Like the ones from the pre 2003 only
        Yes, Valves, Guides, seats had also gone through some mod's not sure how much different are they from the earlier machines.

        As for as i know, these are the kin of the CI500s which came for some time with a little face lift on the look and feel, just to show different from them they had increased the cc from 500 to 535.
        Never Give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

        Cheers
        Ramesh Madhavan

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        • #64
          This is what a RE is capable of which other bikes cannot think about

          What would happen if these many people get on to a 220 CC punk
          Never Give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

          Cheers
          Ramesh Madhavan

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          • #65
            @rameshmadhavan: To achieve such a feast, these bullets go through slight modification to increase the overall strength so that they can take such a weight. The wheels are modified/different with strengthened rods in-between the spokes so that the alignment stays correct. I saw/read this some years back during the time of Republic Day. Otherwise it is pretty much not achievable in stock form.

            Not to take anything away from Bullet, but it has its own purpose and many limitations as well. If you revel in the fact that bullet can carry 20 men, on the other hand a bullet isn't quick, agile or fast enough compared to a motorcycle which has lower specs on paper. So you see, it's easy to argue saying that each motorcycle has its purpose n all. A person will always try to highlight any kind of positives of his favorite motorcycle. Just like you did!
            The Chronicles of Motorcycling - The Man, The Machine and The Road

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Satellite.kid View Post
              @rameshmadhavan: To achieve such a feast, these bullets go through slight modification to increase the overall strength so that they can take such a weight. The wheels are modified/different with strengthened rods in-between the spokes so that the alignment stays correct. I saw/read this some years back during the time of Republic Day. Otherwise it is pretty much not achievable in stock form.

              Not to take anything away from Bullet, but it has its own purpose and many limitations as well. If you revel in the fact that bullet can carry 20 men, on the other hand a bullet isn't quick, agile or fast enough compared to a motorcycle which has lower specs on paper. So you see, it's easy to argue saying that each motorcycle has its purpose n all. A person will always try to highlight any kind of positives of his favorite motorcycle. Just like you did!
              Ha ha ha..yes I am...this is always there and none of them would say I have a inferior machine and the condition also.

              I agree that there are modifications being done to do this, the entire thread was about 500 Vs 220, if you go through the entire thread it would speak about torque and power..I was just trying to say that the RE's are known for torque and others are known for power...

              No offence on any bikes, sorry if I had mentioned so..it would be unintentional if said.
              Never Give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

              Cheers
              Ramesh Madhavan

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              • #67
                Absolutely true, REs have very good torque! On the contrary of what you might like to think after reading my post, I myself own a Electra 5S 2006 model, and a 2011 Yamaha FZ-S

                Both my motorcycles are as different from each other as they can get. However, FZ-S suits my style more. But I would definitely say that I really admire the Classic 500, I personally respect it more than any RE today.
                Last edited by Satellite.kid; 06-13-2012, 09:28 PM.
                The Chronicles of Motorcycling - The Man, The Machine and The Road

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Satellite.kid View Post
                  Absolutely true, REs have very good torque! On the contrary of what you might like to think after reading my post, I myself own a Electra 5S 2006 model, and a 2011 Yamaha FZ-S

                  Both my motorcycles are as different from each other as they can get. However, FZ-S suits my style more. But I would definitely say that I really admire the Classic 500, I personally respect it more than any RE today.
                  Thats cool....Evn am not Just a Enfield guy

                  I have a RX100, Yezdi CL2, YBX .....I Love my RX100, which I had been admiring for years now.
                  Never Give up on something that you can't go a day without thinking about.

                  Cheers
                  Ramesh Madhavan

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                  • #69
                    Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                    Sorry to igniting more than a year old thread, but I still read it several times to understand many things and will continuing reading......thanks all for such info.....
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                    • #70
                      Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                      Originally posted by Saerius View Post
                      These engines have different dimension.The 500 has 84mm bore and 90 mm strokeThe 220 has 67mm bore and 62.4 mm strokeVisualise the dimension as a four sided polygon on a 2d surface, i.e a square or in this case a rectangle, (with bore as horizontal and stroke as vertical lines) the 500 has a vertically tall rectangle , this architecture of the combustion chamber is called as a oversquare everywhere and long stroke in American :PThe 220 on the other hand forms a horizontal rectangle, this is undersquare or short stroke in American, if you stretch the top then it would become square, and if you stretch it more it will become over square.The dimension or the architecture of the combustion chamber defines the characteristic of the engine, or in vice versa the reguired characteristic of the engine being developed will define the dimensions of the combustion chamber, in design speak.Oversquare engines have pistons that need to travel a longer distance than Undersquare (the internals are heavier because of this (thicker c/s because of additional length and to distribute the stresses), which in turn means more internal momentum), this is one of the factor why longstrokes dont rev much.the benefit from the over-square design is (will need clarification from someone more learnt here, i am just a mere student) that the longer duration of the stroke, gives the ports more time to fill/empty the cylinder, this simply means better volumetric efficiency for the cylinder. This equals decent amount of torque and combined with the longer duration strokes, smoother torque delivery at the flywheel. Also CR can be kept low to promote lesser stress on the internals, (you cant 'safely' increase the cr with-out better/exotic materials and manufacturing technology in your hands. safely being with out reducing the life drastically)^these engines cannot be be over reved with any benefits. The valvetrain, port and head geometry, intake and exhaust manifold length, size ,etc are all designed to help improve the low end torque characteristic of the oversquare cylinder. over reving the engine will just cause wear and tear without any 'decent torque' output. decent torque in my definition is anything not less than peak torque the higher you go in the rev range.These engines coupled with the tall ratio drives are meant just for cruising. period.The Pulsar engines are a bit undersquare, cbr250 and the ninja 250 are a better example of undersquare engines. Undersquares are basically our screamers. The short stroke length (which in turn means lighter internals) is a primary reason that these engines can scream upto 12k and even 18k in the older cbr250rr i4s.But these engines dont have a good low end volumetric efficiency, but it gets better the faster it revs (valvetrain permitting), the higher the bore/stroke ratio the lesser torque it produces in low end and higher it scales to the higher end of the rev range. These engines typically have peaky torque outputs compared to the flat or plateau torque curve you can expect from the longstrokes.These engines paired with fairly close ratio drives can accelerate faster cause the gearboxes allows them much greater access to the torque. These engines are designed for getting the maximum acceleration possible from it. Period, (the pulsar engine is a bit squarish in this aspect because it also has to serve the purpose of a daily commuter, but the kawa 250s and honda 250s fits the bill more than perfectly)So lets go back to the 220 beating your 500 scenario. If the 220s is accelerating past you, it will be hard for you to catch up.But if the 500 was already on a charge and the 220 is trying to catch up, it would be stressfull on the little 220ccPS:220 owner here
                      you were coming to the right point,but slight correction. An over square engine is short stroke.you said it reverse. Pulsar 220 have almost square engine. That is bore and stroke do not differ alot. Bore to stroke ratio closer to 1. Enfield motor is a long stroke motor. Hence not over square. Short stroke motors rev faster. Take apache,fiero etc for example. The accelaration by a long stroke motor is not quick as from an over square engine. Because the piston have to travel more to complete a stroke. Though p220 is not that much over square, comparitively it got shorter stroke. It revs quickly. The state of engine tuning is another factor. P220 have an above average state of tune for making peak power at high rpm. In the case of RE500 it's a low state of tune, for its touring and cruising abilities. Obviously RE500 will not catch up on a p220 on a stretch in terms of quarter mile timing or quick responce. But I'm not saying it can't attain a top speed which will match pulsar. Surely it will but with more time. Power to weight matter alot when it comes to racing. Even then, the engine characterestic is the main point here. Simply..pulsar is peaky, bullet is torquey.
                      Last edited by X-hawk; 09-13-2013, 03:19 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                        [MENTION=32046]Saerius[/MENTION] - Oversquare engines are those in which bore diameter is greater than stroke length and undersquare engines are those in which bore diameter is less than stroke length.
                        So a p220's engine is an oversquare one and classic's engine is an undersquare one.

                        Generally, too much long stroke engines are not meant to hit top speeds quickly. However, they can sustain a particular speed without any stress on the engine. Also, the roll on acceleration from high gears and low speeds is pretty good. Longer stroke engines means equally big crankshaft and that means greater moment of inertia. Moment of inertia means ability of any body to resist motion. Hence, they generally do not hit the revv limiter at higher gears. If you want to make it hit the revv limiter, you need lots of power to overcome the inertia. Also, making a long stroke engine revv high will increase the wear and tear of the engine and reduce it's life. Hence, they are generally made to cruise and not accelerate like crazy.

                        In short stroke and large bore engines, it's completely opposite from what I said above. Lesser moment of inertia, hitting the revv limiter easily..hence achieving topspeeds also easily. But at higher rpms, the engine sounds stressed as compared to long stroke motors. Engine characteristics greatly depend on the cam profile and port design. Straight ducting of the ports reduces the air-fuel flow at lower rpms, but it increases as the revolutions of crankshaft rise. Hence the engine produces max power at higher rpms. Horizontal duction enables the engine provides more air-fuel flow at lower rpms, maxes out in midrange and decreases at higher rpms. Hence the engine has more punch at lower rpms but loses out of breath at higher rpms. So when you tried to catch that pulsar guy, the engine was probably at higher rpms where there isn't much power. But the p220 was in its power band and kept accelarating nicely!

                        Never judge a bike by its engine's displacement. There's an old saying - "Judging a bike by it's cubic capacity is like judging a woman by it's bra size"

                        Ofcourse, one can have vertical ducting on a long stroke engine and make it outperform a short stroke engine. But that will greatly reduce the life of the engine. I guess that's done only in races where life of the engine is the last priority and power being the first.

                        Sent from my GT-I9300 using xBhp Connect mobile app

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                        • #72
                          Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                          This thread is like "WOW" ............ made me remember a few chapters from a subject (called IC Engines) that I had in my Mechanical Engineering

                          Warm Regards,
                          Pranav


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                          • #73
                            Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                            Yea sorry about that, i mix up my analogies sometimes. Please accept this as a correction. Over-square engines have Bore>Stroke, and Under-square engines have Bore
                            But the relation between undersquare,( or oversquare) design vs the engine speed it can attain is not solely justified by Moment of Inertia. Moment of Inertia will only indicate to us the amount of generated torque consumed by the various mechanical linkages, to run.

                            Maximum 'attainable' engine speed is primarily dependent on the mps (and piston accel), and material.
                            To attain that engine speed secondary design considerations like ignition advance, port flow rate, valve duration & overlap and various other mechanical witchcraft is utilised.

                            Pulsar 220 with its 62.7mm stroke and 10.5k rpm is already at around 21m/s. The bearings, conrod and various other bits dont have the structure suitable to withstand the high thermal cycling and mechanical stresses. They will perform no doubt, but the actions of fatigue and creep will be accelerated. (no need to mention valvetrain they can take more abuse)

                            The enfield with 90mm stroke achieves 21ms at 7k rpm, which incidentally is where the revlimiter for the 500 is, (not sure if the limiter is at 6k or 7.5k)
                            ____

                            Vehicle acceleration is a game of leverages and powerbands, the ones who has more accessible powerband (via good choice of ratios) will accelerate faster over a strech.
                            The oversquares generally have peaky power bands vs the undersquares who usually have a chunky flat powerband, but with proper gearing the over squares can stay in their peaky range for more time.

                            ____

                            Tushar - By vertical ducting, were you referring to to steeper port and valve seat angle?
                            When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car

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                            • #74
                              Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                              Originally posted by Saerius View Post
                              These engines have different dimension.

                              The 500 has 84mm bore and 90 mm stroke
                              The 220 has 67mm bore and 62.4 mm stroke


                              Oversquare engines have pistons that need to travel a longer distance than Undersquare (the internals are heavier because of this (thicker c/s because of additional length and to distribute the stresses), which in turn means more internal momentum), this is one of the factor why longstrokes dont rev much.


                              ^these engines cannot be be over reved with any benefits. The valvetrain, port and head geometry, intake and exhaust manifold length, size ,etc are all designed to help improve the low end torque characteristic of the oversquare cylinder. over reving the engine will just cause wear and tear without any 'decent torque' output. decent torque in my definition is anything not less than peak torque the higher you go in the rev range.

                              These engines coupled with the tall ratio drives are meant just for cruising. period.

                              Well now I'm really confused. The apache has an over-square design with a bore:stroke ratio 5:4 and it's one of the most rev-happy engines i have seen! Or does that 5:4 ratio means TVS was lying and its an undersquare engine afterall?
                              The more i got to know of the internals, the more confusing it seems
                              Last edited by co0lG; 11-13-2013, 11:21 AM.

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                              • #75
                                Re: 500cc vs 220cc.....

                                Originally posted by co0lG View Post
                                Well now I'm really confused. The apache has an over-square design with a bore:stroke ratio 5:4 and it's one of the most rev-happy engines i have seen!
                                The more i got to know of the internals, the more confusing it seems
                                Well may be RTR's engine is not most rev-happy engine in the class but surely its very aggressive and gear ratio is short kind of....
                                KTM RC390 - Current
                                Yamaha R15 v2 - Sold
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                                An IT Engineer by profession and a rider by soul.


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