Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

As a general yardstick the shape and the size of the dome will require modification. At the very least the squish band diameter needs to be match with the cylinder. However, all said, the changes to the dome need to be considered on case to case basis.

As far as the stock crank is concerned, once again you will need to consider the issue on individual case to case. Also designed considerations will be based upon the your criteria. For example, if you are building a endurance engine, it will be different, a short life drag engine, it can be different, a road racing engine that needs to survive for 1,500 kms before overhaul intervals, it will be different.

It is possible that the crank is over engineered. But in cases where the crank is just good enough for the current displacement, in cases 2 & 3 mentioned above, it still might work. However, for a endurance engine, you would need to make changes to the crank, for example a stronger connecting rod, a rebalanced crank and a modified weight compensation for any extra weight added.

P.s.: my current project is a endurance engine for my R15. It is an interesting experience, which I will record on my thread once it's completed.


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Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

You are absolutely right about the Piston top shape and Compression correction required.....
Whenever an engine mod is done to a stock engine, the maximum safe limit is 10% ...beyond which the mod is in unsafe area of engine operation and catastrophic failure will happen in due course of time....Even within the 10% margin, many aspects of mod must be made within safe operating area....Like you said the compression should be near stock value(within10%), squish area should strictly not be disturbed, crankshaft and con rod , and the bearings should be capable of handling the increased stress,engine oil and coolant flow increased to take care of cooling and lube requirements, in short every aspect of an engine operating parameter must be carefully re done to suit the enhancement. All this is possible only when you have the design details of the engine, which is why I always insist that it is better to leave stock design as it is, and for more power , either sell off the present motor and/or go in for a higher powered motor....End of the day the cost of upgrading and associated non reliability is simply not worth it....Add the cost of modification to the sale of your present bike and buy a higher powered motor...at least you will have reliability, Warranty ,People answerable to you,and not give lame excuses, availability of Parts, and authorized service to back you up,without blame game....

Of course a 10cc increase in a 220 cc engine is well within the 10% margin...but the bad workmanship , poor attention to detail , and a lack of commitment, had lead to failure, leading to the individual's upgrade to become a nightmare

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

When inlet and exhaust port are modified it increases flow of gases. But still the question remains.. Is it ok to use the same cumbustion dome for a bigger dia piston and would a stock crank be able to take the stress of a bigger block?

Will the increased area of the piston create a problem with the shape and capacity of the dome remaining the same?

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Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

Instead inlet and exhaust port are modified to allow more fuel-air mixture and exhaust gases. Which doest work that good as claimed

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

So basically this person spent his money, lost his peace and opened up a (hopefully) good bike for a 10cc increase???

I have a question. Actually it has been in my mind for some time now. Before all this hoopla over the race tuner and other 4stroke tuning houses began, I have come across only one viable big bore mod. That is the rxc165 mod in which a rd piston is installed in a rx block, connecting rod and head dome are modified to accept the piston.

My question is when you install these big bore kits, no changes are done to the crank. So the stroke of the engine remains the same. So higher displacement is achieved through a larger diameter bore. If the bore dia increases, how come the head dome is not modified to accept the increased piston top area? Wouldnt that lead to improper compression and flame propogation?

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Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

Same here.. Though I have not taken day off from work but have gone through the whole thread & it truly is an eye opener.. It clearly demonstrates what happen when you do not do your homework before/after shopping and blindly implement it.. and truly in debt to [MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] for painstakingly pointing this out to the masses

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

I guess there is a solution from the supplier even if you have a bent sleeve, as our member faced with his P230cc bore...though it didn't work

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

You took a day off just to read the whole thread? :O Is this called Automobile addict.. hehe

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

This is the best thread ever I came across. I don't know how I missed this before, I caught with it yesterday night & believe me, today I took a whole day off from my work just to go through each & every page of this thread right from the beginning (my eyes are paining as i type this)

Hats off for the effort [MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION], this thread has been of immense knowledge. I am highly impressed with your factual write up, you've documented your experience very well, its going to be an eye opener to all, who are planning for hot rodding their rides in future.

Keep up the great work. Looking forward for your review on Motozone BB once you get it.

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

Shv18...A good post on a quick way to check for Piston clearance, .......no proper ,piston and matching cylinder boring will ever get into a faulty clearance wherein the Piston becomes tight inside the bore...Most Piston clearance is pre-mentioned for the particular piston,depending on it's material and temperature expansion coefficient....
every manufacturer mentions a maximum oversize to which the bore can be expanded, depending on the design parameters...invariably it is fourth oversize or 1mm extra to stock Piston dia...Of course there are special bores which cannot be bored at all since they have very hard coating done straight on to the Aluminum bore , like Diasil, in which case the cylinder aluminum is overbored to accept a steel sleeve....this ofcourse has it's negatives......
Then there is the question of Bore trueness..ie., if the bore is an absolute Cylinder, or is Oval in shape....
Boring of a cylinder needs exceptionally good machines with very close tolerances....

All said, you have given the quick check list ,and the method for checking the bored out kits....

Here is a You tube video which will be interesting to learn from....

How to measure a cylinder.wmv - YouTube

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

[MENTION=32641]shv18[/MENTION] Do you wanna add anything about the tooners FFE?

Re: Piston & Cylinder warping test

^^^ This is a very good thing that you have put up, so that buyers can check their block before they install it, thus saving them time, energy, breakdowns and maybe even worse!!

Thanks for sharing

Piston & Cylinder warping test

Hi All,

i know we all have been discussing about the "Tooner kits" being faulty and flawed for a while now. But i am surprised to see people still opting to go for the seller's kits regardless of the high failure rates and warnings. By now we all are aware that a bigger sleeve is being inserted and then bored out to the specifications on a 182cc kit. Most of the times the boring of the cylinder has not been done properly and as a result there are minute warping present inside the cylinder which aides to the early demise/seizure of the kits. So, for the benefit of the community, i will try and provide a basic guide about how to check if the cylinder has been bored properly or is warped in nature. @psr ji: please do correct me if i am missing out on any of the steps.

First Noobs and riders please understand what is TDC, BDC and the Cylinder walls for the experiment mentioned. For this experiment just for demonstration purpose, i am using my stock block and stock piston. Forgive me for my horrible photoshopping skills but i hope it serves the purpose.




And a simple animation showing how a 4 stroke motor functions:




First things first. Basic maths: A cylinder one of the most basic curvilinear geometric shapes, the surface formed by the points at a fixed distance from a given line segment, the axis of the cylinder.

So theoretically, the shape of the cylinder remains constant right from the BDC to TDC. In a stock block, this consistency is present to ensure that the piston moves freely yet the rings provide adequate pressure to ensure a sealed tight environment for the 4 stroke engine to perform effectively without allowing engine oil to leak in or lose compression in the process. With Tooner's kits, this is not the case! The quality is sub - standard and i hope i have shared enough data to prove my point already on the this thread.

So folks, lets start with the experiement:


STEP 1: First using new engine oil, apply it evenly on the surface of the cylinder and on the side of the piston. Then carefully insert the piston (with the piston rings installed on it and oiled properly) into the cylinder




STEP 2: Once, you are absolutely sure that the piston has been installed correctly, slowly push the piston to the center of the block cylinder. try and feel if you meet any stiff resistance while pushing the piston inside. If the piston gets stuck somewhere in the middle and refuses to budge no matter how much pressure you apply then my friend you have just witnessed the cylinder is warped.



STEP 3: Now gently push the piston all the way to the TDC position. See if you notice any stiff resistance against it. If the piston get's stuck somewhere while pushing it to the top then the cylinder is warped.



If you notice the arrow marking on the STEP 1 image, once you are done doing the above steps gently turn the piston sideways while it is installed inside the cylinder and then repeat the whole process again. If the piston gets stuck anywhere TDC, BDC or in the center then gentlemen you have just bought a dud piece!!

Now as per my experience with the Tooner's kits, you can repeat the same test without installing the piston rings and repeat all the steps. I am pretty sure, 9 out of 10 kits will have the warping issue and piston getting stuck at places predominantly visible!

For all those people who have ignored the warnings and still gone ahead, purchased the RC kits and are yet to install it to your respective bikes, make sure you follow the above mentioned test. Will save a you a lot of $s later.


Cheers,

Re: Switch replacement and Air filter clean up report log, 1st October 2013

LOL!!

sir the carb test is only limited till the drag runs and that's about it! I am happy with the current config..

Cheers,

Re: Switch replacement and Air filter clean up report log, 1st October 2013

If you are going to experiment with a Flat slide Carb., better take a picture of Mr.Vikram of Motozone.....before and after ..