Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Hi Shv. The ride was very short on your bike. However, initial impression was good. As discussed with you earlier, I could feel throttle jamming on release, probably an issue with the carb. Once that is taken care of it should be a hoot to ride. I too am eagerly waiting for the Nikasil bore on your FZ. Should be a good experience.

If all goes well, my D200 exhaust upgrade is next in line as discussed yesterday.

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

@shv18 & @psr : Isnt engine oil supposed to become black after some time, atleast after couple of thousand kms? In all my oil changes till date (since the days when the bike was fully stock) it was always black when drained for oil change. I have used Shell Advance Ultra for a long time now and it was drained at intervals 4-5k kms and it was fully black by then.But when I was checking level on dip stick it always had yellowish colour which became more brown with time.


350 or 500? People might get misled by this comment


Another point to be noted is the drawback you mentioned of high lift cams (uneven idling, unhappy bike below 3k rpm, cold start problems & changing idle to suit) are the exact same things which I faced when I was using the 33mm carb. Surprising to see how to entirely different mechanical components can provide similar results.

So I am guessing you will revert to stock cam, considering your touring requirements.

Re: Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Shv 18....another detailed informative post from you..enjoyed going through it, since it contains valuable data...I would like to make observations for what ever it is worth....

1.The Plug chop with new "setup" shows Chocolate brown which is ideal for an engine's reliable running...

2. The New High Lift Cam seems to be just right for your engine..that you are not hearing any Sewing Machine sound indicates that the cam lobe profile is not wild...difficulty to set proper Idling is part of high lift cam ....with high lift cam there will be difference in Valve overlap which at lower RPM causes this problem....

3. You have said that at higher RPMs there is a sound like Turbo spooling and can hear a whirring sound...Please check up with Motozone if your valves are getting into mild valve float and lags behind the cam in returning back to position at higher RPMs....

4. Your Engine oil becoming Black is an indication of Compression leak through the Rings and the spent gas coming into the crank case.....obviously there is no proper Piston Ring sealing...Try using Mineral oils for another 3~4 K Kms and see if engine oil fouling continues...if it does then your bore and Piston rings are not sealing properly and you will loose engine oil progressively.

5. Engine braking being poor is because of the high lift cam....with more overlap, the engine has less time ,when the valves are closed,(compared to stock) and this leads to the running on experience....

Please remember that the Designer and Manufacturer Knows EXACTLY how the engine will work with the STOCK setup , and All parts are chosen with specific metal , and clearance specification , best suited for the design and any alteration to any part in the Engine ,is at the Expense of, Refinement,and Reliability...
Unless the design Parameters are Known, all and any alterations to Stock Engine is not advisable ...

Hope this helps

Motozone: Head & Mild Lift Camshaft Prototype, Ring Failure 17th Aug 2013 Log

Hi All,

Yesterday was really a fun day. Many thanks to riders abhimanyu31, Chinmayakar, FZERIDER and Abhayanshu for coming forward and meet up. Had a good time exchanging ideas, experiences, our views about hot roding, biking and general stuff. To make it slightly philosophical, all of us are from different backgrounds, different work profiles and reside in different parts of this Metro city, Mumbai. But everyone shared a common passion and enthusiasm which is motorcycling. We had enough matter to keep things going from morning to evening till the work on my bike was done. Thanks guys, i really enjoyed the enthusiasm and the company: learned a lot from everyone. We should definitely plan a long ride once i can get rid of this piece of junk BB kit.

I guess i got too carried away chatting up with these gentlemen: so much so that i completely forgot to take the pics of the build and installation. Forgive me guys. Will do that soon. Motozone have developed 3 protoype versions of the Ported Engine Head and the Camshaft for Yamaha FZ/Fazer from their stable. The one that has been currently installed on my FZ -X is a high lift camshaft and ported head for more power and performance. So they made it very clear to me that the FE will take a hit. Rider abhimanyu31 had a look at the the port work done on Motozone's engine head in comparison to the RC head. I would request him to please do share his views on the same.

Rider Chinmayakar & FZERIDER had a small test ride on my FZ - X. I know that it is not enough to give out an overall verdict just by going for a short spin, but nonetheless, if and when time permits i would request both of you gentlemen to please do share your impressions here.

Just for the record, my ride now has:

* 182cc BB kit
* Ported head and high lift camshaft from Motozone
* 29mm CV carb
* Simota Air filter
* Leo Vince GP Corsa Stainless Steel Full Exhaust System with the DB Killer/insert installed (Thanks to the "pandus" in the city!)
* 15 T Front and 40T rear sprocket config.
* Motozone Pre Programmed CDI

INITIAL OBSERVATIONS:

* It was interesting to note that the moment we installed the Motozone's ported head and high lift cam set up and went ahead with a few test rounds; without changing anything on the carb or fiddling with the last carb set up/ slide positions we had kept set with the RC head (i.e 122.5 mainjet, 17.5 pilot jet & needle jet from Pulsar 180 kit, Apache RTR adjustable needle with the needle position kept at the richest setting) the spark plug readings showed an ideal AFR burn i.e Chocolate brown colour tan on the plug electrodes. I am not sure what is the reason but my guess is the flow of the AF gas charge on this head is very different from that of the RC ported engine head for FZ.

* Now in comparison to "Tailor Saab" or the RC high lift camshaft, There is no stitching noise, no crazy vibrations/back fire/reverse cranking nothing. I took a short video after reaching home. Below is the link for the same:


Video Link 1: My FZ - X with the new Motozone ported head and highlift cam

UPDATED:



Video Link 2: "Tailor Saab" camshaft noise. Guys please do make a comparison between the two and see it for yourself. Please note that both the videos have been shot with the same phone camera so there is no audio enhancement done on this one to tarnish someone's image just for the heck of it. Facts have been laid in front of you rest is for you to decide.


Please do note that the video with the Motozone kit is more for trying to catch the sounds emanating from the engine and camshaft rather than trying to work on the visuals itself. The parking lot was quite dark so please do ignore the blank video screen turning up at times. This video has been shot with my phone cam so the sound quality will not be that great but should give you some idea if one makes a comparison with the videos posted earlier on this thread with the RC camshaft installed.

* If one notices in the video above, when compared to "tailor saab" the noise is almost non-existent and is more less same like with the stock engine. Only when i attempted WOT or took the revs beyond 6,000 rpms there is a certain amount of sound coming from the engine bay which is like when a turbo charger starts spooling up in a car: Whirring noise. I think i really like this additional note sung by my FZ -X; its not irritating but somehow contributing to the whole experience of riding my bike if you know what i am saying. Feels like my bike now has a turbo charger kit installed. Some more riding should allow me to give an in depth perspective on the same.

* In terms of pure performance: It is a different experience all together!! The FZ - X feels like it is currently high on something. The throttle has become really sensitive. The moment i cross 3,000 rpm the acceleration is very fast and progressive and the engine happily revs past 9,000 rpm to the absolute edge of the tachometer. In comparison to the stock camshaft, the overall experience is completely different. It feels very fast and goes like a bullet.

* The rpms are quite erratic when the engine is cranked to life and is cold. One has to initially keep the engine idle screw adjusted to a higher position in order to allow the engine maintain the idling at 1100 rpm. Once the engine hits the peak operating temperature, the rpms will start shooting past 2000 - 2200 rpms sometimes even 3000 rpms. The idle screw then has to be dialed down to reduce the rpms to around 1800 - 2000 rpms. This high lift cam really doesn't like being kept at idling below 1800 rpms or else the engine will shut off the moment, one reels back on the throttle and dips the clutch to change gears at slow speeds.

* The engine braking has now significantly reduced when in comparison to the stock camshaft. I am now more dependent on heavy application of brakes and the gear/engine braking in order to effectively cut speed. So one has to be extra careful when attempting high speed runs. If one may recollect i had faced the same issue with "Tailor saab" as well. My guess is the brake life of both front and rear will take a massive hit now due to this phenomenon. Luckily it costs just a dime for replacement brake pads which should keep things light on my wallet; maximum Rs. 300-350 for both sets. I would request PSR Ji and other senior riders to kindly give their views regarding the reason behind the change in the behaviour of the engine due to the installation of a high lift cam.

* Without any effort from my end, i was able to shoot past the 100 kmph figure and hit 114 kmph in less than 600 mtrs. Beyond this the speedo nos. started slowing down. Readers please note that the DB insert has been kept installed while i was attempting to check out the overall increase in performance; hence, the issues of the loss in power between 4-5,000 rpms (like in the earlier tests) and the top end beyond 8,000 rpms becomes very significant the moment one attempts WOT. The same thing is non-existent the moment the DB insert has been removed. My guess is Leo Vince Full exhaust system has been designed for a 153cc stock engine. The current 182cc kit and the extra gases being generated is creating back pressure which is further actuated when the DB insert is installed thus, hindering the performance. I have already requested Motozone to start working on a custom DB insert with a bigger dia exhaust tip in order to see if we can ease out the back pressure and the performance drop is reduced significantly.


Once everything was installed, Mr. Vikram drained the engine oil. We all were quite shocked to notice the colour of the engine oil which has completely turned black. Based on my experience with Motul 300 V 15 W 50 FS oil, this is quite unusual for a 3,600 kms old oil. abhimanyu31 suspects that the signs are most likely indicating piston ring failure and that the quality of the rings are quite average for such a high tolerance set up. We changed the oil and oil filter and i have been gifted a small bottle of fresh engine oil by Motozone to top up the bike the moment i notice a drop in levels of the engine oil. abhimanyu31 has suggested me to check at intervals of every 300-500 kms and top up if necessary.

I am now eagerly awaiting for the new NiKaSil big bore kit from Motozone so that i can quickly get rid of this kit and write it off as a bad experience. Also i can then start resuming my long distance rides. Until i finish testing the new ported head and cam properly, i will not give a complete green signal to any of kits offered from this tuning house. So far the experience and the attitude of Motozone guys has been very positive. I do hope they will keep it this way.


Cheers,

Re: Prep: Motozone Ported Head & Mild Lift Camshaft & RJays Gloves

Shv 18,...another thorough preparation and sharing from your end..I am looking forward to your valuable observations on the testing and work ,slated for To-day....

Prep: Motozone Ported Head & Mild Lift Camshaft & RJays Gloves

Hi All,

As mentioned earlier, Motozone has confirmed that they are ready with their offering of Ported Head and Mild Lift camshaft prototype. So as a protocol, i have got hold of the following items which shall be replaced along with the installation of the new head:



Pic 1: New head metal gasket.

As a mandate, i normally always replace the gaskets any time there has been a need to open up the engine. Thanks to yamaha the prices are not that high for the head gasket: Rs. 40/-



Pic 2: Gasket for the side access bay to the cam chain and camshaft. Rs. 15/-



Pic 3: Oil Filter.

Since, we are moving towards a new ported head and also the oil due for change, i am replacing the oil and oil filter with fresh stock. Seems the price of the oil filter has increased slightly from Rs. 35 to Rs 40/-.

I have been using stock accelerator/Throttle cable since last 3 years so as a preventive maintenance, will be getting that replaced as well. The price of the throttle cable is Rs. 249/-. Seems to be more expensive then the clutch cable which the last time i had replaced was for around Rs. 85/-. But nonetheless, the prices are still not that high if i compare with the parts prices of an R15.



Pic 4: Throttle Cable.

Thanks to rider Chinmayakar & abhayanshu for agreeing to meet up tomorrow. They will be busy testing out some performance air filter for their Duke 200s while i get my work done on my FZ - X. If the weather does permit i shall join them for a short spin and test out the new ported head to the fullest and shall report back my initial impressions. It would be really nice to meet fellow xbhp riders from the same city.


Anyways, today i received a surprise gift from my father:







Pic 5,6 & 7: RJays Canyon riding gloves.



Pic 8: Collection for the day.

The quality looks quite good and the stitching is good as well. I shall provide a long term report in the "Riding Gears" section on the same. Pricing wise, it is quite cheap considering the quality one is getting. Just Rs. 2,499/- Bachoo Motors also have different riding gloves which start from 3k onwards. I would highly recommend guys checking their website out.

They have also confirmed that Leo Vince Gp Corsa Full Exhaust system is now available with them, ready in stock.

* GP Corsa Stainless Steel Exhaust : Rs. 11,600/-
* GP Corsa Carbon Exhaust : Rs. 14,500/-

They can ship all products offered on their website across India for a small fee.

As of now RJays will serve me just fine. But i have my eyes on the Spidi Riding Gloves: Motorcycle Protective Gear - Spidi
According to abhimanyu31, JV Pro Moto shop are the official distributors for the same.. so sooner or later they shall be mine!!

As always Thank you sir for your quick and informative response. I am looking for someone who knows someone in a metallurgy lab conducting Spectrometer/Spectrograph analysis. Any feedback/help in this regard would be awesome.


So guys, stay tuned for the report and the pics.

Cheers,

Re: Semi Forged??

To the best of my knowledge how can one Semi Forge a Piston ? The type of Pistons I had known of are Cast, Hypereutectic, and the Forged..
The cast ones are as the name implies cast in a mold with Molten Aluminum....The Hypereutectic are one cast in same way, but the Aluminum has more of Silicon to reduce heat expansion, and the Forged is like the name says, Forged from a Billet with high silicone content, in to the shape required.
All forms require further finishing to suit the application... May be the hypereutectic is called as a Semi Forged since it is better than a cast one but not equal to the Forged one.
Just my thought

Semi Forged??

Hi All,

Just for the benefit of the members, i would request senior riders to kindly throw a light on the term 'Semi Forged' piston. Rider MadMik and others have already provided quite a lot of info on the same but there seems to be still some confusion about this amongst riders. From what i have understood they are actually 'hypereutectic pistons'.
Your inputs and participation are encouraged on this thread.


Cheers,

Re: End Of RC Era, the truth and statutory warning for all noobs, 5th Aug, 2013

What about the mainjet size
Did you try lowering the jet size to get a perfect fueling

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

To the best of my knowledge, as a precautionary measure, once you finish your run-in:

* Check the condition of the spark plug using plug chop tests at low, mid and high rpms. If you don't have any idea regarding what is it, check this link: How To Read Your Spark Plugs, They Are Telling You What’s Going On in There | Rays-Shop

See what reading are you getting. If the colour of the spark plug is chocolate brown then it is the ideal AFR you are looking for. If the spark plug shows extremely white and flaky deposition then your engine is running lean. You will have to either make the AFR richer by turning the AFR screw on the carb or upjet it using bigger jets on your carburettor. If i am correct the P220 stock carb has 115 mainjet?? If so you can purchase 117.5 UCAL spec mainjet from Bajaj which matches your Pulsar carburettor, ask for DJ121056 jet holder kit from Bajaj Spares shop. Ensure that they provide you the UG 1/2 carburettor spec'd models. Newer ones come with 112.5 mainjet only.

* See if when you decelerate, the rpms take longer to come down compared to stock. If they do then chances are you are running lean in the low and mid range.

* Keep a tab on the engine oil consumption. For better protection, i would recommend FS oil.

* Give yourself and the bike a break every 100-150 kms to cool off.


I wish you all the best with your trip.. Ride well, ride safe and do share your experience and pics if and when time permits.


Cheers,

Re: The POWERHOUSE Fz18

U got ur p220 hot rod by joel or d200?
Thanks a lot mate, I just got my bike done, got all goodies from him a week back. Hope things workout well, have to ride from delhi to bangalor next month..

Sent from my GT-N7100 using xBhp Connect mobile app

Re: Leo Vince test runs, performance drop observed, 12th Aug, 2013

Thanks again for your inputs psr ji!

Like shv18, I should have contacted you during my experiments with hot rodding, would have saved me a lot of headache I guess

I should have read more about impact of bigger carbs but I just fell for the term "bigger carb"!

What you have mentioned above "still a D type and Flat type slide is to be selected at least 5mm less compared to a Round slide carb., to maintain better Venturi velocity from low to mid RPM" makes perfect sense because I cannot get idling stable no matter what I do. It was also claimed by the seller that it is due to the carb being bigger. Uneven idling is not creating much of a problem as of now, but it still feels like something is not right! Currently the top end tune is rich which I am trying to sort out using slightly smaller main jet, so bugging shv18 now!

Also just to clarify, I am also not running with stock filter but a conical filter from Simota.

Re: Leo Vince test runs, performance drop observed, 12th Aug, 2013

Thanks for joining the discussion Chinmayakar. I am glad that the kits performed to your expectations. Please do share your long term, experience with your hot roded Duke 200 and honda city as well... It would be something we all can learn more from.


I wish you all the best in your endeavours towards hot roding.

All the best mate...


Cheers,

Re: Leo Vince test runs, performance drop observed, 12th Aug, 2013

From your description of the carb you had mentioned, it is clear what you are referring to is a "D" slide carb....A round slide gives better performance from low to mid RPM while a Flat slide gives better performance from high mid to WOT..A D type is a happy in between type for acceptable mid to high end performance....still a D type and Flat type slide is to be selected at least 5mm less compared to a Round slide carb., to maintain better Venturi velocity from low to mid RPM .
Like Shv18 had posted it is better to stick to BS29 for better overall experience, and support of components...

The Yamaha Y135 LC scooter and R15 Motorcycle which is an Yamaha overbored engine are both Diasil coated bore, in which there are no steel sleeve insert.........The Picture Abhijit 080808 posted is that of an Y135cc bore which had been bored out to accept a Steel sleeve, which is then bored to the required Higher cc....

Re: Leo Vince test runs, performance drop observed, 12th Aug, 2013

Yep I will go ahead with the 29mm CV carb along with the TPS mod.
The Ownership cost was my concern too I hav asked few local spare shops who sells carb parts and they told they have never seen a D-slide carb for bikes anywhere.
Thats why I haven't Bought the carb till now
Now I got a clear Idea about My my ride needs next
Eagerly waiting for the cam data to arrive