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Yamaha R15 Fi Sensor Discussion

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  • Yamaha R15 Fi Sensor Discussion

    I want to bring attention to the Q&A section in Bike India January 2009 edition. The first question is asked by someone wanting to fit a K&N airfilter to his R15. He was concerned if the bike would need re-jetting since it is fuel injected.

    Bike India's response:- Yes, you can fit a K&N filter on the R15. The ECU of a fuel injection system will automatically alter the fuel flow to suit the free flow filter.

    The above answer is INCORRECT. The R15 fuel injection system will NOT adjust the fuel flow automatically because it runs an open loop fuel injection system. There is no O2 sensor providing feedback to the ECU on whether the bike is running rich or lean. On the R15, the airfuel ratio needs to be set manually with a handheld controller available for the purpose. Open loop FI systems are used on small bikes like the r15 to save costs. There are also closed loop FI systems such as those used in cars and they are quite expensive. A closed loop system is capable of making adjustments to the fuel flow based on inputs from various sensors in the vehicle.

    Magazines should be 100% sure before publishing such info to the masses. If anyone here can convey this to the right people in Bike India, please do.
    Last edited by Killer; 12-26-2008, 11:07 PM.
    http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
    www.youtube.com/killer

  • #2
    Topic Approved
    :)

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    • #3
      Just saw the email address and i've emailed them as well

      Hopefully its corrected in the next issue. We dont want people running around fitting K&N's thinking the bike will automatically adapt. The R15 will inevitably run lean with a K&N filter until the AF ratio is corrected manually. This is also probably something you dont want to encourage either because most of the yamaha showrooms either dont have the handheld tuning unit or dont know how to use it
      http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
      www.youtube.com/killer

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Killer View Post
        Just saw the email address and i've emailed them as well

        Hopefully its corrected in the next issue. We dont want people running around fitting K&N's thinking the bike will automatically adapt. The R15 will inevitably run lean with a K&N filter until the AF ratio is corrected manually. This is also probably something you dont want to encourage either because most of the yamaha showrooms either dont have the handheld tuning unit or dont know how to use it
        Good that you have made the R15 owners aware. A lot of youngsters buy this magazine and follow the advice given. You might want to send a PM to Bunny.
        DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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        • #5
          well bike India does have some errors every now and then but this would be damaging as a lot of readers do buy this mag and would follow it.

          but the damage would be done already as the person who queried probably has already fitted the filter on his R15.

          and also error rectification published in a mag are USUALLY very small in print and not noticeable. its should at least eye catching so as to seriously rectify the damage caused.

          OT

          Btw a question that triggered by reading this.

          since the R15 have a open loop ECU
          then wouldn't the bike have serious problem operating at higher altitudes ? because it'd need more VOLUME of air (since the density decreases) in order to burn the same fuel.
          Last edited by Xenologik; 12-26-2008, 11:51 PM.
          A man's testosterone level is directly proportional to bhp that he's using on his motorcycle.

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          • #6
            Many went for K&N either only for sound or in expectation of more performance without knowing anything at all about what makes the bike give better performance with a K&N... But then, a louder bike sounds to be performing better!

            So, the R15 is on an open loop FI system like the RTR... thought this one is a full fledged system. How about the P220's FI? Is that too the same?
            Last edited by HydBiker; 12-27-2008, 12:48 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Xenologik View Post
              since the R15 have a open loop ECU
              then wouldn't the bike have serious problem operating at higher altitudes ? because it'd need more VOLUME of air (since the density decreases) in order to burn the same fuel.
              P220 does have an air temprature sensor that alter the supply of the air according to the prevailing air temprature. That is the one reason that in recent Himalyan ride of Bunny, p220 was the only bike which managed to reach the highest point without any hiccups.
              sigpic

              Yes, i blog too..

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              • #8
                I have nothing against the mag, just pointing out an error.

                The internal workings of these ECU's are fairly complex and i'm no expert on the subject but from what basic knowledge i do have of open loop systems they have inbuilt maps for different conditions the bike could possibly be in. There are various other sensors that provide input to the ECU. MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure sensors are used guage atmospheric conditions. They are generally located in the intake manifold, i havent verified if the R15 has one though. What i am sure of is that there is no O2 (lambda sensor) and without that the air fuel ratio cannot be automatically managed.
                http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
                www.youtube.com/killer

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                • #9
                  I have Reported the Issue in BI Members' Orkut Community! Expecting a reply soon.

                  Otherwise, I haven't seen Amit & Bunny on this site, from a long time. Don't know why?
                  Last edited by Samarth 619; 12-27-2008, 12:36 AM.
                  ---
                  Brotherhood, Rules, Freedom. Xbhp.
                  Indian riding = Alertness, Anticipation and Adjustment.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BANDHAV View Post
                    P220 does have an air temprature sensor that alter the supply of the air according to the prevailing air temprature. That is the one reason that in recent Himalyan ride of Bunny, p220 was the only bike which managed to reach the highest point without any hiccups.
                    Yes the intake air temperature sensor is used to help the ecu calculate how much oxygen there is for a given quantity of air, hotter air has less oxygen than cool air. Again, i havent verified if the R15 uses one, i basically gave up when i realized there was no O2 sensor and AF had to be dialled in manually. Pacer yamaha have the handheld unit and know how to use it, i dont know about other dealerships.
                    Last edited by Killer; 12-27-2008, 01:01 AM.
                    http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
                    www.youtube.com/killer

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                    • #11
                      Ok found this diagram from the yamaha india website, so that confirms the use of the manifold pressure sensor and intake temperature sensor i've mentioned above. In addition we have an 'engine' temperature' sensor used to determine if the engine is warming up or at operating temperature and a crank angle sensor, used to indicate engine rpm as well as to determine what stroke the engine is in and control the timing of fuel and spark accordingly.

                      So the ECU will run appropriate inbuilt maps for different weather conditions based on the inputs from the manifold pressure and intake air temperature sensors, however without the O2 sensor in the exhaust it would not be able to automatically manage the AF ratio in the event a K&N filter were installed.



                      Last edited by Killer; 12-27-2008, 01:31 AM.
                      http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
                      www.youtube.com/killer

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                      • #12
                        saw this diagram before I bought the bike but forgot all about it. Based on this I expected the R15 to have a full fledged FI system with all sensors in place... so, the one missing now is the Oxyzen sensor.

                        Well, Killer Dude, how'd we relate this to the problem Santoosh mentioned? He complained of this long back too... that his bike performs better in Chennai than in Bangalore???

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HydBiker View Post
                          Well, Killer Dude, how'd we relate this to the problem Santoosh mentioned? He complained of this long back too... that his bike performs better in Chennai than in Bangalore???
                          Bikes in Chennai will typically perform better coz at sea level they will be running slightly higher compression, therefore they will feel peppier and more lively under acceleration. In addtion if Santoosh's bike is running well in hot conditions it probably means he is running a lean mixture. In another post he indicated he has changed the AFR, that could be the reason.
                          Last edited by Killer; 12-27-2008, 01:51 AM.
                          http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
                          www.youtube.com/killer

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                          • #14
                            one more question .. now there is a screw to adjust the idling level and I have adjusted it too. So can we make the mixture richer by increasing the idle.

                            also are tuning boxes such as PC available for open loop FI systems ?

                            .:. Archi

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Killer View Post
                              at sea level they will be running slightly higher compression
                              Sir, can you eloberate this part, i failed to understand it.
                              sigpic

                              Yes, i blog too..

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