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Yamaha R15 Fi Sensor Discussion

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  • #61
    Originally posted by digislayer View Post
    Even though the R15 uses an Open Loop FI, it uses an FI system that includes the MAP-Sensor, unlike most other FI systems.

    So, it's not as useless an FI system as everyone else is thinking it is.


    MAP Sensor:


    The MAP sensor can also be used to measure the barometric absolute pressure (BAP sensor) when the engine is not turning, i.e., when the intake manifold is not being evacuated by the engine's pumping action.
    When the engine is running, the difference between the BAP and the MAP is the engine's manifold vacuum. As atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing altitude, so must vacuum to maintain the same MAP.
    BAP = MAP + Vacuum
    (Source: MAP Sensor - Manifold Absolute Pressure)




    Once the Intake Air Temperature Barometric Pressure(which can be obtained from MAP as stated above) are determined, the Intake Air Density also can be calculated without the need for an extra Lambda Sensor.


    (Source: Fuel Injection)



    Alpha-N
    There is one other EFI control system that is generally used only in racing called an Alpha-N system. This control system's major inputs are throttle position and rpm. This system was developed because race engines often operate at idle and part-throttle with very little manifold vacuum. This makes using a MAP sensor difficult. This system is less precise than speed density or MAF and is therefore generally only found in racing or on heavily modified street engines with big camshafts. A MAP sensor can still be used with Alpha-N, but it is generally employed as a barometric pressure sensor to detect altitude changes.
    (Source: Fuel Injection Basics - Tech Article - Chevy High Performance Magazine)


    that means we can use K'N in R15?
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    • #62
      It means the ECU has built in maps to account for small atmospheric changes like changes in altitude. Thats the case for any road going bike that runs on FI. A K&N isnt a small change and the bike will still run lean. There will be no significant performance gain without adjusting CO. Since you like the sound so much, thats the only real advantage you will get, the 'feel good factor'. Just how detrimental running that lean will be overtime i cannot say, depends on the kind of riding you do and the environment you ride in. I'm sure there are lots of people running the K&N on the R15 without fuelling changes and with no obvious adverse effect. I dont know anyone who has done a test to 'failure' and posted about it, so its your call. Maybe you can test and let us know. As far as performance though, the answer is pretty clear.
      http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
      www.youtube.com/killer

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      • #63
        Killer, I've recently found something:

        I experimented with the stock air-box, by modifying the air inlet for more air intake. What I've noticed is, that the ECU actually makes up for the extra air that's going into the manifold. The MAP sensor enables this to happen. I tried tuning the CO value later, with the modified setup, and there wasn't much increase necessary, almost nill. I still put it on a notch higher, just to be on the safer side. I tried CO value of "5" with the increased air intake, and petrol vapor was actually coming out of the exhaust, could see it precipitating on the end-cap after riding for 50kms. I then had to decrease the CO value to 1 or 2 again. (And each increment adds 0.05cc of extra petrol per cycle).

        So, as far as I understand, this means that the R15 can make up for the increased air-intake. It just cant make up for changes in the air density by much. It can detect changes in air flow, but not in air density. Hence, even though the air is less denser, if the flow is high, it might still add enough fuel sufficient for normal density air of same flow rate, and hence might richen the mixture unnecessarily...and vice versa. Since it doesn't have a lambda sensor, it cannot detect this unnecessarily richened situation to correct it. In my words, I'd call this as "Static FI", and the other type which can adjust CO according to exhaust as "Dynamic FI" (computer terminology! ). The R15's FI looks up only the statically stored AF mixture tables, and runs, without any feedback from the exhaust, and without any further real-time tweaking. It cannot deviate from the stock map, or stock AF mixing table in other words.

        Being a track oriented bike, it's okay to assume that the bike will not be used at many places in the world without prior-tuning every time. So, K&N may really do some good after all, given the CO value is tuned for that particular area where the bike is running, or else the difference in AFR might get magnified.
        Last edited by digislayer; 09-21-2010, 11:43 PM.
        Sunny.

        Yamaha Spare Parts price list for ALL Yamaha bikes, Parts Catalogue for YZF R15 and FZ16:
        Yamaha Spare Parts Price List/ Bike Parts Catalogues - 2010 (UPDATED)


        A complete DIY Projector Headlamp Tutorial for YZF R15: DIY Projector Headlights for R15!

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        • #64
          CO+1 would be about right +5 is too much for stock exhaust / bore. Its a stock engine with nothing changed but the airfilter element, you cant expect to run +5,only a small increment would be needed, but would matter. +5 works well for bigbore motors and R15's running the daytona kit. Can you test on road (acceleration / speed figures) with no change to CO with stock airfilter and with K&N and see which is better? I can only give you track figures and without the K&N was better in terms of laptime, so translated to real world riding, you may gain a little somewhere but will loose out more elsewhere without tuning AFR.
          Last edited by Killer; 09-22-2010, 01:53 PM.
          http://www.facebook.com/sameer.venugopalan
          www.youtube.com/killer

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          • #65
            guys i have read all the replies in this thread and tried to understand how much i can.. thnx to killer & joel for explaining the complicated process but am not much of a technical guy and just want to know if the K&N can be fitted on the R15 ?? if YES then which model number and if NO then what harm will it do to the bike ??

            P.S this question is related to the bike's performance and not the exhaust note.

            Many thanks in advance.

            Josh.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Killer View Post
              CO+1 would be about right +5 is too much for stock exhaust / bore. Its a stock engine with nothing changed but the airfilter element, you cant expect to run +5,only a small increment would be needed, but would matter. +5 works well for bigbore motors and R15's running the daytona kit. Can you test on road (acceleration / speed figures) with no change to CO with stock airfilter and with K&N and see which is better? I can only give you track figures and without the K&N was better in terms of laptime, so translated to real world riding, you may gain a little somewhere but will loose out more elsewhere without tuning AFR.
              Well, first of all.. I haven't got a K&N on my bike..it's just the stock filter with modified air-box lid! I felt the stock filter is good enough, it's got some nice surface area.

              And now the situation, I'm currently running on +2. Before making the air fliter changes itself, I was running at +1, because I've noticed my spark plug always looks like the engine is running lean. I redline all the time, you can say I ride my bike like it's ridden on the track..my coll road is just like a track. My bike runs on flat-out throttle all the time on this college route, and 90% of its odo reading was done on this route only. So, since my spark plug always appeared grey and dry, I put it on +1, but never got a chance to check the plug again after running on +1. So, I then modified the air intake, and tested +5 (It was an accident). I then got another chance to tune the engine, and this time I let the engine warm up nicely before tuning, and found there's not much difference in the CO requirements. RPM was peaking at "0" to "+1" CO. It was dropping slightly at +1, and it dropped enough at +2 to make it rich enough. Below "0", it was going lean. So, just to be on the safer side, I left it at +2 now. Will get to know more once I check the plug again..

              About the experience, I do feel the bike is more torquey for a wider range of RPM, and see the speedo numbers changing quicker, with larger differences than before between every speedo-refresh. I cannot clearly tell you how much better it is compared to a stock R15, because there's no dyno or vbox access for me here, but it definitely is quicker than stock. Will try taking few videos soon and post them, maybe you can tell the difference then.
              Sunny.

              Yamaha Spare Parts price list for ALL Yamaha bikes, Parts Catalogue for YZF R15 and FZ16:
              Yamaha Spare Parts Price List/ Bike Parts Catalogues - 2010 (UPDATED)


              A complete DIY Projector Headlamp Tutorial for YZF R15: DIY Projector Headlights for R15!

              Comment


              • #67
                K&N

                Killer do u know any one in pune who can install and re jet the k&N filter for the R15.

                Comment


                • #68
                  ^^^^ search for chinmay dangre (core power) !!! he is in pune and is into performance modifications
                  Suffering from Parked Motorcycle Syndrome

                  Cant ride ? read this..
                  http://MechMarvels.wordpress.com

                  Repair manuals for Hero honda Hunk
                  https://www.xbhp.com/talkies/do-your...eneration.html

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rickyraj View Post
                    Killer do u know any one in pune who can install and re jet the k&N filter for the R15.
                    re-jet? is that possible on our R15 coz it is fuel injected, i too would like to know if it's possible. as far as i know we can increase the air fuel mixture only by their specific equipment thats computer controlled not just by re jetting it.

                    guys plz throw some light on the issue of how to increase the air fuel mixture in our r15
                    MuRtHY

                    Drive Safe

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                    • #70
                      ^^^IT IS NOT REJETTING BUT REPROGRAMMING!!!!

                      even i did not notice that...
                      Suffering from Parked Motorcycle Syndrome

                      Cant ride ? read this..
                      http://MechMarvels.wordpress.com

                      Repair manuals for Hero honda Hunk
                      https://www.xbhp.com/talkies/do-your...eneration.html

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        i knew their wud'nt be much bump in power by installing a knn........now after going through your comments it's obvious knn wont better the performance of the r15 but will it decrease the perfrmance ???

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