@Sheel, the whole idea here's about engine braking (still not got answer on gear braking), I think what he meant was point #1
1. Regular braking - Brake first & then shift down gears simultaneously
2. Engine braking - Shift down gear & then apply brakes simultaneously

@aarge--it isn't as you are mentioning it, you have simply vice-versed the braking and gear part, you cannot brake to the bike's full potential until and unless you use engine to your help, that is why we have slipper-clutches today

it is a simultaneous process where you apply brakes, pull the clutch in and go down the 'box, for proper results you need to rev-match

what i am saying is this--you guys engine brake all the time and don't realize it. every time you let off the gas, that feeling of the bike slowing, that's the engine slowing the bike.

Its a trade off & not full; both has to be a good & right mix to avoid brake shoe damages as well as engine damages. Hope this is clear. I've always been insisting this point.

^^^Exactly what I meant

Brake shoe damage or brake shoe wear?

engine damage due to engine braking, if done in right context in a run-in engine, there are absolutely no evidences to prove that engine-braking caused an engine to blow up

yes, there will be absolutely no damage caused to the engine/gearbox/clutch due to engine breaking or gear breaking(downshifting at high speed). in my 25+ years of biking i am contentiously using both types. its highly recommended to use engine/gearbox breaking especially while high speed cornering, which enables a controlled entry into the corner and a fast exit out of it. it even enables a quick mid turn correction. so using engine/gearbox breaking is absolutely safe and highly recommended.

The question about whether engine braking is harmful for the engine notwithstanding, you do need to bring about a radical change in your braking technique, that is if what you've stated above is not a typing error. The front brake provides most of the braking and under-using it while laying more stress on using the rear brake is a surefire route to trouble in motorcycling. Though putting numbers to something as dynamic as braking is not warranted, still 70% front and 30% rear brake usage, simultaneous, is a good starting point.

Now to the 'Engine Braking - good or bad' query.

From the engine's point of view, there is no difference in its wear and tear whether you are using it to accelerate or decelerate. Accelerate hard everytime, pulling the engine to high rpm's in every gear and you wear it out quickly. It is the same with engine braking. Downshift into 2nd from 5th while you were doing 70 kph and you are putting a hard load on the engine. Close the throttle at 70 kph in 5th, let the speed drop to 50 and downshift to 4th, let it drop further to 30 and downshift to 3rd and so on is almost duplicating the acceleration pattern. No unusual harm an be done doing this.

This link here Tips for Bikers - INDIA appears to be a poor cut/copy - paste job from some biking forum. I'll give examples to support what I say:

Take the case of recommending counter-steering here:
Try explaining something as critical and complex as counter-steering to any rider in this manner.

There's one about 'Engine Braking' :

The 'bold' emphasis is mine. Group riding demands working brake lights as riders are close in while this point suggests to the contrary...I don't understand by what logic.

Another blooper about 'Clutch Control'.
See the point in bold. Why? Maybe if your bike's gearbox's shifter-dogs are made from Kryptonite!

All said and done, this debate over whether engine braking is good or bad for engine life is akin to the one between conventional run-in procedure and the mototune variety. The story will remain inconclusive as opinions abound on either side. The mototune thing for example breeds the 'conspiracy logic'. It will be the same with this subject.

Your braking is almost spot on if you are traversing bad/off road conditions, you need to flip the percentage for on-tarmac usage

I presume you are saying this in context of usual everyday riding, but once someone is attacking his favorite twisties/B-Roads what happens is the motorcycle's front brake lever is pulled till it becomes hard/you realize you are losing traction accompanied by blips and going down the 'box,
now if my motorcycle's redline is marked at 12k, there is no harm if going down the 'box brings the revs upto somewhere around 6k.
(Hope i am right? feel free to correct me if i am wrong)

From my little knowledge, i would rather stick with conventional-run-in method for road going motorcycles,
race/track motorcycles should be caned right from the word go(had read in a literature which had mentioned about the same while preparing David Jefferis bike for IOMTT)

and as far as this linky Tips for Bikers - INDIA goes have a look here--
Did CSS teach this?
watch couple of videos in between
YouTube - Motorcycle Downshifting with Jason Pridmore at Miller Motorsports Park

YouTube - Motorcycle Downshifting with Jason Pridmore's STAR School ClutchCam

YouTube - Motorcycle engine braking

You are right with that additional qualifier. Thanks.


Yes, it has to do with conventional everyday riding assuming the person asking the question is doing so with that in mind. Of course, the twisties and riding edge of the 'traction envelope' demands a lot more than tame downshifts but then thats a subject rather tediously complex to put down in the written word. You are right about presuming that with an engine red-lined at 12k, 6-7 k rpm is no big deal. It is not. In fact, from my experience, using a bike within some 80-85% of its abilities allows you to ride it from here to Timbuktoo and back without any problems. It is the remaining 15-20% territory that begins a tussle between performance and reliability.

Agree on that too but then people generally get a high by relating their bikes, even if they happen to be 150cc commuters, with those high-performance specialized machines that rule the track. They crave for commonality vis a vis tyre 'compound', run-in method, performance oils etc etc . To each his own actually.

PS: Nice videos btw. Thanks for sharing.

Aah, but according to this controversial Motoman, engine braking is actually good for the bike during the break-in period.

He explains it thus: when the throttle is cut, the inlet valve remains shut while the exhaust gases are pumped out continuously, thus creating a vacuum in the cylinder. The piston rings stretch and fit tightly into the cylinder. The vacuum resists the piston's reciprocation and hence, we experience that slow deceleration. This way the piston rings fit perfectly and ensure that the cylinder walls are not glazed with oil which will burn due to blow-by.

Many experts recommend that during the break-in period of an engine, one must ride down a slope in lower gear while keeping the throttle shut. Engine braking is excellent for the piston-cylinder mating process.

Gear braking is when you downshift at a moderately higher rpm than at which you would have shifted up, and forcing the engine to run at a higher gear ratio all of a sudden. The pistons' rate of reciprocation is suddenly increased greatly to cope with the new gear ratio. A centralized braking is brought about like this because the driven wheel itself is controlled.

I haven't noticed that the pickup becomes sluggish.

Excellent! Same here! And yes, i am very much trying out the Motoman method on my new FZ.

Agreed. Here comes that point where each rider must decide whether engine life is more important to him/her than riding pleasure and superior performance and where exactly he/she will draw the line.

The 'bold' is mine. The opening and closing of the valves, inlet or exhaust, is not linked to the throttle in any way. Its the camshaft and rockers that do the needful and the valves will go on merrily closing or opening as long as the piston is going up and down and the crank is going round and round.

The 'engine braking' you feel is because of the fact that without significant fuel intake (mind you, there's still a tiny amount of fuel coming in even with the throttle fully shut. the engine would not idle otherwise), the engine is no longer capable of producing power and thus doing any 'work'. In fact, it is the inertia of the bike that, through the driveline which connects it to the engine, makes the engine run like a pump. And running a pump consumes energy which comes from the kinetic energy stored as the momentum of the bike. Let things be and eventually the bike will come to a stand still as all the stored kinetic energy gets used up.

PS: The 'vaccuum' is transitory as the piston goes through the intake stroke with the throttle valve shut. Add to the 'pumping load' actually.

I am quite pleased to hear that! I love these techniques and actually feel quite helpless with only the brakes applied.

Yes, my front braking is unsure. I don't have petal discs on my vehicle and at high speeds, discontinuous braking is essential if you don't want the front wheel to, as is it's wont, lock up and twist the wheel sideways. That would be more trouble than risking a tail drift. Anyway, i rely on the engine and transmission more and hence the thread!

Point noted and appreciated.

Many experts seem to agree with the man! Yamaha, Honda and Kawasaki accept the truth in his theory, i hear.

And thanks for the excellent videos, sheelpriye.

"Don't always use the clutch for changing up gears"? They actually recommend roughly shifting up? If we miss the right rpm by a moment, we're for it.

I belong to this category actually. But at the same time, 150cc motorcycles cannot be ignored completely of their motorcycledom. A little practice on my FZ16 (Lor' bless it's tiny insignificant soul) will educate me better on how to maintain my future Ducati Monster 796. I firmly believe that a motorcycle is a motorcycle.

Keeping abreast of world wide techniques which are applicable to your existing technology is not wrong. However, getting excited about, for example, fuel injected motorcycle maintenance when you're still owning a carbeuretted machine is foolish. What is applicable and is easy to practice (depending on the difference in output) is well worth learnt.

1. And what is Engine braking?
2. How is Engine braking different from Gear braking?

If the inlet valve keeps opening, and assuming the throttle is cut, no petrol enters the engine, but a lot of air sure will. Is this the case? Is this the pumping action you are talking about?

What do you mean by the 'vacuum is transitory'? I understand that you're attributing engine braking to the flywheel's limited energy holding capacity; that the role of the pistons is reversed and that work is actually done to move the pistons than the pistons doing the work.

To eliminate that sound u need to do rev-matching while shifting down. Pull in clutch, blip the throttle a bit and downshift. You will notice how smooth the downshift gets, there wont be any sound either and it will also help ur clutch last longer.

Also using Engine braking does not mean u downshift like crazy. As gentleman Old Fox said, ur downshift pattern should be similar to upshift pattern.

0-10kmph= 1st gear
10-30kmph=2nd gear
30-40kmph=3rd gear
40-50kmph= 4th gear
60 and above= 5th gear

I use this as a reference while i ride. dont know whther its correct or gud to use. If any mistake then please correct me.

So when the speed is in the corresponding ranges i downshift while braking and also use the same while upshifting. If the ranges are any harmful then please correct me.

While downshifting or ushifting please remember to press the ull clutch. Dont use Half-clutching. It harms the clutch plates. Blipping the throttle helps also to get a smoother downshift and correct engagement of gears. Dont blip the throttle too much though. A light blip will do the job!