AFAIK except Kawasaki's, no other manufacturer puts petals as OE(in India it is TVS) and i surely do not feel petals have much to do in this aspect, else Honda/Yamaha/Ducati/Aprilia/MV's would be gobbling petals

It isn't discontinuous braking, this thing was taught in US to blokes who couldn't control the car, brake modulation is important, you got to know the point where traction starts breaking and you have to let go the lever to come back at it again, but maybe you are saying the same

and still want people to abide by the conventional method?

Thanks

In the past year and more, i do not think i have pulled in the clutch for an up-shift

These manufacturers reckon most people don't know how to or otherwise don't care to ideally vary the rpm as required. If the procedure isn't followed carefully, you'd be doing more damage to the engine than breaking it in. For example, engine warm up before the ride is extremely important in case of the Motoman method. Also, it is important not to 'stay' at a fixed rpm. There is a bit of procedure involved here so these companies just recommend the safer and easier method.

That's very interesting. How do you do it? What are the advantages of this method, apart from the increased clutch life?

Well, admitting of being a noob, i had run my Karizma the way Moto man described and it provided no significant advantage over a conventional run-in motorcycle,
^had done some 600kms with 4 oil changes
^^ I currently stick to oil change intervals, but do not go by Moto man's, i practice the way described in my sign
Very hard to describe and was very hard to do on other motorcycles earlier, but with everyday doing it on a R15/Fazer, i can do it on any motorcycle save for Rajdoot(2 stroke 175cc), haven't ridden an RE though,
part-- as soon as you let go off the throttle(you need to roll off less in an R15) at the very same fraction of the second, you need to bring the gear home.

what a technical and involving thread. i really liked it.

Here are my two bits.
One of the stupidest notion floating around is not using front brakes. Any thing that moves forward will get the best chance of slowing down quickly if the brakes are applied on the wheel in front of you and cutting power off.
If you don't believe that, show me a dog that slows down by dragging its rear legs.

However like everything in life there is no solid rule, on wet, broken surface the rear can be called into service to prevent lock up in the front. But then also if you don't use the front at all, you will still crash, if not by skidding then by stopping a little later and banging into the stuff you were wanting to avoid in the first place.

Another thing that bugs me is when people mention speed as a measure to shift gears.
Remember the revmeter were first installed in racing cars, to let the know when is the time to shift gears. Technically you shift gears when you hit the point where your engine produces maximum power. So the point where you shift gear is not dependent on speed. An R15 and a Karizma will have different speed, and different revs, where you can upshift. It will be stupid to shift in both at 10 kmph from 1st to 2nd.

Engine braking and clutchless gearshifting is again an art. Learn it well and you will reap the rewards, act stupid and the engine will go for a toss.

We all engine brake anyways, like someone pointed out. The only difference is when you are attacking your favourite corners you have to combine it aggressively with gear braking and you will be going faster through the corners and will also have more control of the bike while you are at it.

As far as clutchless gear shifting is concerned, keep putting a little pressure on the gear lever with your toe as you accelerate, when you are in the correct range, you will feel the gear lever getting a bit easy and then a little more push and you would have slotted in the next gear. Finding that spot is like kissing a girl, you will know when she wants you to.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

thanks for the input.
Though I still feel, braking with 60(front) : 40 (rear) or 70:30 ratio combined with engine braking is the best way to brake in any given condition.

Let it be sudden or wet rainy day or any other aspect which requires hard braking.

that's what I do everyday & I love it.

No! No! Not kissing a girl but I had found the sweet spot, keep slightly pulling the upshifter, spot on right rpm and voila gears upshifts with just a bit lil pull,
& I rarely clutch while up shifting, belive me its pure bliss.

One more thing I want to ask/tell.

Suppose, am in 3rd gear not in a RPM range to downshift(downshifts are surprisingly hard when in wrong RPm) but neither in a RPM range to accelerate or increase speed in a flash.

At this stage, I simply get in the cluch, race the throttle for two short bursts, pull down a gear (this time it goes down butter smooth), and then desirably accelerate.

Is it right way, or am I the only one doing this?
Though I do it more often in Cars.

Though Its great for acceleration.

Shanz

yeah i know what you mean. And this problem also increases from bike to bike. Something with a good midrange will probably pull you through, but if the power is in higher rev range you need to downshift.
One trick is to press the clutch and accelerate and then release the clutch, without changing the gears. While this gets you in the rev range where power is, faster than say slugging along in the higher gear, it is not very good thing to do, simply because your clutch is going to get shot if you do it frequently.

The correct thing to do is to downshift, without reducing the throttle too much, but if stuck you can use this. though like i said, avoid it.

Also please remember these tricks are to be learned progressively, it is not computer science and hence there is no 1 or 0. The whole idea is to find a sweet spot between ample performance enhancement and keeping the engine alive for longer.

While what you see on the race track is the best way to extract the maximum out of your bike, remember they have a whole team waiting if the rider blows the bike apart.

I forgot to mention this and Thank You kind Sir for poiting out,
Traction does increase with downshift when you are in a sticky situation. I am not very good with physics and can't pin-point as to why, but i know this for a fact and have been using it.

Do you mean you are blipping while clutching in and going down the gear-box, if yes, you are doing it right and that is why the gears go home w/o any protest.
try this w/o blips and jerks shall be felt along with thud sound form the 'box.

Engine brake - If you close the accelerator on a running vehicle ,
compression shall back-up into the cylinder and gradually bring
it to a full stop . AFAIK .

i am going to add my few cents. For proper braking procedure please read the following topic and add any questions or something I may have missed.



Engine or gear braking is fine if you blip the throttle and match the revs effectively. Done wrong, you can downshift and not blip properly causing the rear wheel to lock up unless you have a slipper clutch.

As far as I know , they cause no harm to the engine. I went through a phase where I would only use downshifting to wash off speed going into a corner as I found it helped my entry speed better. combine engine braking with the correct technique as mentioned above and you have found the best way to wash off speed which you need if you go into a corner hot.

Cheers

Angad

Luckily, no "boom", "thud" & "jerks" for me.
Just two short burst or blip's and I am done, gear slot's down without any effort and engine stay's in the right juicy range.
Btw, thanks for reminding me of the word "blip", I missed it completely.

Well I had never been to "proper" race track but still on few tracks, I had found myself braking, blip & shift to lower gear & again lean plus accelerate through the turns.
Right way indeed?

Although a year ago, with no racing experience, I used to hang down my seat miles before the turn and looked like a maniac going off the track snoozing!!
Thankfully, some freak shot me doing this monkey stunt, and my "shame" brough me back, making me more serious in the act.

O.T. -

@46
With R15 I had learned one primary lesson, if you want that "pull" then pull that stick in the correct slot, else you're wasted.

My bro's P200 never had this problem, it pulled right through the mid RPM range to the top RPM limit, without loosing it's breath.

So yes, charcterstically, every bike is diffrent.

Now, how to find if whether it needs a upshift or downshift?
I assume it wth the engine note plus the acceleration delivered, before shifting I burst the throttle just for millisec, if this burst, at the engine sounds "hoars" and dosn't pull the bike like it should then I clutch, blip twice & drop down a gear then accelerate. If engine note & pull is "crisp", then its all fine.

It may feel long & tough in word's but it barely take's a second for me. Still, it ain't a "tested & sure" thing to do to.

Shanz

Heres another trick from the racetrack. KNOW WHICH GEAR TO TAKE EACH CORNER IN' Obviously this is for roads that you know inside out and are planning to do lots and lots of laps on . preferably its a race track. this way you know which gear gives you maximum acceleration and which gear is optimal for what corner and takes guess work out.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more

I've often been thinking about that and came to the conclusion that it has to do with the gyroscopic effect of the rotating engine. What I mean is that the faster the engine rotates, the more it will want to stay upright, and the whole bike with it of course.

It's much better and safer to go round a bend under-geared, using the smallest gear for the terrain (engine revving higher), than over-geared, with the engine revving slower. It offers much more control. It's the same with cars. In a lower gear the car doesn't roll half as much round a bend, and that means much more control.

Only a few weeks ago I completely lost control of my offroad bike going round a bend because I changed from 3rd to neutral!! Of course I meant to change from 3rd to 2nd but something went wrong and I went past second into neutral. I was riding quite on the limit round that bend, and in an instant I lost the momentum and total control of the bike. No way could I avoid a crash – it was that “” feeling again. Basically only thing I could do was go straight and keep my fingers crossed. Luckily it wasn't a cliff or a tree, but still quite a steep hill... Anyway, this is just to illustrate how important gearing is (and good body protections!).

All this is part of engine braking which is so important. Also, engine braking causes little wear to the machine, less than if you were braking all the time, or riding the clutch.

As mentioned earlier in a thread, engine braking isn't a good idea with 2-strokes, as the engine can seize. This is especially true if you are coasting down a long hill with a 2-stroke.

[QUOTE=Ganeshan;455081I meant to change from 3rd to 2nd[/QUOTE]

Should have added that I changed gear before the bend of course......

No discussions after this??..really sad..such a good topic!..I had to google for this ..I'm a newbie so please excuse me If I am wrong, well I ride a unicorn

my bike produces 1.3kg-m @5.5k rpm ..so as someone mentioned..do I have to shift at 5.5k rpm from one gear to another(a point where maximim power is produced)??..coz while shifting from 1st to 2nd,the bike makes a huge roar going beyond 5, Is it okay if I revv it beyond 5k?? does it damage the engine?? Being over cautious I shift at around 5k rpm!

what if I dwnshift at lower rpms??.Suppose am riding at some 60 in 4th (5.3k rpm) I let the bike come down to lesser speed on the same gear and downshift it..without a blip.Is this practice good?? Feel free to correct me

Re: Engine braking and gear braking

I have using this technique on my TVS Apache for about 5 years and I haven't got any signs from the engine yet. Whatever it is, I feel confident while negotiating curves and exiting them.