yeah Ken.... we agree and understand your point. I had a 150 cc Pulsar and when I wanted an upgrade..only two machines came into my mind...Zma and Pulsar 220.!
I understand people's concern about bad roads, lack of driving/riding sense and all the related stuff...but are WE somehow forgetting that the same kind of Roads are there for the Caged Birds too.
if I wish to buy a car today...I have almost everything...from the lean mean 800 to the Top Notch...they use the same roads, so why not for Bikes!
well, lets understand.....when a Company plans to introduce a bike...it would always look for mass production and mass sale...they would perhaps never give a SH^t to a small fragment of Bikers who would want more then 13bhp Horse!
but believe me..things will change..as they changed in the 4 wheel segment.......dont know how many of us can recall but I remember it fairly well the times when we had only Fiats and Ambyz on our Roads, but then came the Suzuki and the scenario changed...it still is improving!
so what if we dont have Ferraris or Porsche, we still have a whole lot of choices to opt from. so its just a matter of some more time....it changed for 4 wheelers, and with the Bajajs and Yamahas doing their bit(would NOT count HH in it) I am waiting for the sun to shine on the 2wheeler segment too.
Things change, people evolve...its just a matter of time!
but till that warm and sunny Morning comes after this clod spell of Dark winter Night....I would Rather ride a ZMA or a Pulsar!

yep I agree , thats why I said "niche products".Bring them here but it shouldn't be within the reach of every tom , dick and harry.Who ever has the passion for motorcycling , should get the money and buy it.And of course this doesn't mean that it should be priced more than double its price elsewhere.

I suppose they forgot to look at fencing in the cows before nationally launching the R1 and the MT.

I can keep adding points too if I wanted even for countries Germany and France who have some of the most stringent methods of giving licenses unlike their dole. Banning motorcycles for example, going by the sheer number of R6 that drop off the mountain curve edges.

That is not my point. I am trying to highlight the lack of choices. There is not much to choose between 15Bhp and 189 Bhp.

1.We all know how we get licenses ?
2.We all know what kind of stuff we encounter on the highways (as pointed out , people/cycles crossing dividers , driving in wrong lane , getting on the main road w/o looking at the approaching traffic)
3.No proper markings on the roads (imagine doing a 140 kmph and hitting a breaker)
4.no staged license system .Until and unless people upgrade slowly with cc and bhp , they won't undrstand the true power of these bikes.
5.where driving or riding simply means use of accelerator , brake and cluth.There is no need to know traffic rules.
6.State of roads
7.No fence on the highways to keep away stray animals
8.Highways going through the city , local people crossing everywhere.

there maybe more points too , I'll add them if I can think of any.

As long as these things can't be fixed (which I am sure won't for many years to come) a 200-250 cc , 25-30 bhp bike is more than enough.Rest of the other bikes , keep them as niche products.

yes you are very correct and i fully support you,
n if they cant increase cc then atleast increase the tech.
i mean the braking ,handiling n stuff and not just put another engine in a cycle.

No, its not a failure, but more than that cc is not required in the current scenario. And if the scenario does not change, we dont need an increase in the ccs. Though better engineering, better handling, breaking can be thought of... like the new yamaha machines (R15/FZ16)

No. Thats why kids are kept away from such potential injurious things. Compare this to the biking scenario, immature kids getting higher ccs (in a country where everything is risky on roads)... does it make sense??

Grow up (get India to standards), use/play with knives (get higher cc machines).


OK.

But it does mean provoking yourself to speed more, and hence risk more.

No, manufacturers here just dont see what can be sold. They see a lot of things, market analysis, needs, conditions. And what comes out is what we have here. You dont have a choice but to import machines of your desired cc, and face the risks, its your responsibility, not someone else's.

We are looking at a bike that can do a 120-140kph all day without any hiccups. Blip the throttle and zoom. Its just you and me who will whip it when needed, immatures will still speed all the way to the top-whack all the time.


When you get frustrated with the present scenario, such generalising facts cannot be avoided sadly.


Yup, for the current conditions, 200cc and a little above it, say a 250cc will be the max supported.
Am not just saying bad roads, but some thing more, the conditions/risks that we face on these roads.

Those who are speeding on higher cc machines are at a much higher risk, if they behave irresponsibly.

Ofcourse dude I get ur point. and am not offended either. I like to stress on the % increase instead on the counts. 5 years back how many ppl where touring and now how many. take the % increase.

We cant expect 1/100 bikers to tourer.neither 1/100 biker to head to the race track!.

Zma was a step up to the CBZ segment,5 years ago and it was successfull at that time like that its time to have a step up for a ZMA segment.

see i said no offences to ne one.
and nehow you answer your que. yourself.
even .1/100 of bikers are not into touring n stuff.
and yes there is increase but its not a very drastic one, considering
the % of market 2 wheelers have covered.

for the ZMA ,its a realy good bike ,but can you really consider a tourer.
dont get me wrong but its the same 5 year old tech. with a very forgiving
engine that can sustain these conditions. n this is actually the only bike reffered as "TOURER" here.(inluding some 2 or 3 bikes more).
compare this to something abroad n u'll understand what i m tring to say.
what i mean by lack of choices.
i think now you get my point......

well its jus my perspective, but acc. to me u shouldnt.
i mean to say well lets waits for some time and see whats in store for us from the stable of bajaj( kawasaki ninja), though is 250cc but atleast gives a feel(even if its 10%) of a sports bike.

okies.. put it this way..
how many of the entire biking population have a 200+C bike... <5%. So according to your argument 200CC segment is it self a failure?
OKies.. When a kid uses a knife, it might cut its hand. So U mean that all knifes should be banned!
If U are speaking about ur skills. then ya 200 220CC is enough

accidents happen every where. Compare the number of casualties on a superbike and a normal bike. A higher CC bike doesnt mean speed alone. It means better handling, better breaking, etc..
So mean that ppl who are shelling out more money for a what can be got cheaper, are out of the above said risks. is it?
We are not looking for a bike thats gonna cruise at 140s in all roads. When the roads are good, it should ve a sustainable whack

please avoid such generalising.. and words like "its not gonna change" etc

Ofcourse its all said in the post by Ken. plus ur argument was bad roads. So if the roads being bad is stopping the movement then why should this move happen?
Or U mean that 200CC is the max supported by these roads ?

This is what I was actually trying to say. How many of us really 'tour' ? hardly 4-5% (or even less) of the complete biker population of the country.

These machines will be less used for touring and more for riding insanely in/on the city/highways. This will surely get the occurance of accidents to a higher rate, and in turn make our roads more unsecure. With power comes responsibility (as the marvel picture's movie said), you know the responsibilities, but not the rich kid who's father can afford a proper 65+bhp machine at the stake of his son's life (at around 18yrs or so).

I am most petrified when on open highways (read good roads), I start to speed, and in that stint somehow remember what all can happen if a running dog or cow comes in between the road ? Can I control speeds excess of 100kmph in a second or two ? My reflexes wont help me much, coz the response time is very very less. Good roads are there to speed, but as of what we have now, the 200/220 cc machines are enough. And yes these conditions wont improve ever in this country. Talking of 18-20-wheeler lorries, which push you out of the road all the time, whats the use of so powerful machines (bikes) which will make you take more risks on such risky roads.

A nice ride with no casualties will always keep you thinking about the better comfort, the speeds, more power, etc. But when it comes to crashing at high speeds on such machines, unrecoverable permanant damages, these things seem unresonable, you start to think otherwise. If you see, many of our so called "premium class bike" riders race reclessly on highways on long distances, its insane, guess what will happen if they are gifted with more powerful touring machines, which can do better speeds easily with less efforts (for the rider and the bike) ? Who will be responsible for their irresponsible actions ?

Even full proper riding gear wont help you, there are many freak accidents which happen when speeds increase on good-open roads. Cursing our manufacturers wont help, getting India upto the standards where you can travel 5-6 states without the need of thinking about the risks involved, is what matters. Those who want proper power machines shell out enough cash to get them imported (or buy them here now), this has been going on for many years now, and will be the same.

I would like to finish by saying this, if you talk of biking as a lifesytle in India, a country where you can tour at like 140-150kph cruising, forget it. Dont go by the ego thing, that a not-so-powerful 4-wheeler smoked you and showed where you belong. Its like hes risking his 40-50% (sitting in a metal box,with the so-called air-bags n safety features) compared to you risking more than 100% on 2-wheels.

Yamaha has come out with their litre class lookalikes just coz they know that Indian conditions are best suited for 150-200cc types, touring is a rare word here.

India is a hope-less country when it comes to biking as a part of life, I am proud to be an Indian !!!

You mean to say anything about the speeds or touring capabilities ? I very much agree that we are moving forward, but the conditions are not.... lets see where we reach/end with this Hard Talk (I mean Torque) about "What next?".


Edit: highly OT: Sorry but I saw this webpage while typing the post and could not stop sharing...just amazing

Dude.. just check the number of 2 wheelers heading out of the city for a weekend break! and compare it with the numbers a year back. There is a drastic change. So Tourer(bike) is something which cannot be ignored. A semi faired good looking tourer will make both the ends happy (a same notion when was ZMA released)

With the current road conditions...
ppl who were ridding the bicycle now moved to 100CC.. 100CC is now in 125/135/150 CC. so wats there for ppl who were riding 200CCs ??

The R15 has shown that there certainly exists a market in India for a bike...

• which can cross the 1 Lakh price barrier

• which Looks like a Superbike (with a full fairing, twin headlamps)

• which also has decent grunt and handling abilities

Now that Yamaha has shown the way, which manufacturer would play the smart/fast follower and take the game a notch higher..??

Absolutely.

But for manufacturers, I guess we will remember the research survey results published by MG in the now lost xBhp. The results for a 250 or even a relatively expensive 400 did not seem that bleak. From what I remember, a decent market seems to exist which is being TOTALLY ignored.

What I do feel is that it just requires a bit of courage and risk taking. No risk no gain, that we all know and they can sit back and stay in the unidirectional rut that they have got themselves into for ever so many years.

Yamaha broke the Litre class ice and exceeded their own expectations by nearly 300%. Someone needs to take that step that might embolden others.

The main reason for all the biking griefs in India is the outlook of the manufacturers. They make bikes for city riding and interstate commuting, max. How many manufacturers actually put a "touring" parameter while designing a bike in India? The answer might not be zero but it isn't going to be convincing either. Most of the companies make bikes to be ridden around in the city. It is the passion of bikers in India that gives them the balls to push a 150 CC till Leh or even a 100CC for that matter. You ask anyone outside this country to do that and they will probably laugh at you. 100CCs are for delivering pizzas and not Leh-ing.

Now, the question of "What next?" is valid but has been existing long enough to be ignored by even the biking community. The bikers of our country cannot do anything more than presenting their views to the company. And why should companies bother to do anything more when they know that we will anyhow push our a$$, bike and the balls to their extremes to reach Leh. And how many do really tour in India? How many people in India really know what "speed" means. Speed is not accelerating to 100 in 4 secs. It is not even zooming on the loneliest highway at 150kmph. It is about knowing when to hit the brakes. On our 150CC bikes our brain is not alert enough to beat the reflexes of bottle/lota population that zoom across highways in search of Nirvana land each morning. We cannot escape the trucks coming on the wrong side. We cannot escape the peeking front tyres of cyclists on the highways dividers. It is not just the manufacturers but I feel it is sometimes for good that we don't have the high capacity bikes else terrible incident, that happened recently on a highway, will become an every day thing with a reduced newspaper page rankings with every passing day.

And this is a never ending debate. We can just sit and talk all that we feel and need but ultimatly in whose hands does the final decision lies in? We all know.