@ken: Was there a mixture of sarcasm in it ? .

Its ok that a 1350cc ..for 6 abroad, but a 400cc twin locally manufactured in india.. ?? isnt 3L high ... its a total desi stuff, no import duties. So why 3L.

A 250cc, twin is costing less 1.6L abroad. A 400cc 4 cyclinder bike is costing you 2.5 L abroad.

Then why a 400cc twin bike (made in india) costing us 3L or more ??

Its not arguing... just putting up my ideas.

I agree hash your point that 10% sales is a big thing but if such a 400 +cc bike is launched in india, than this particular bike will have a different class altogether, we can see today pulsar and karizma are like found in every nukkad and gali in all metros in our country this days, The same is started with R15 which costs 1 lakh, thanks to two wheeler loans, than i feel even a bike at the cost of 2 lakhs or 3 lakhs can also do a better business as the loan period one can opt for 5 years where the EMI wont be a big burden on the buyer. We see today R15 has a different market of buyers same will be for this bikes and if this bikes are manufactured in india than the repairing, maintenance will be complicated in initial stages but 2 years down it will be as common as any mechanic can repair it as now is the case of any 100 cc bikes.

but again whoever manufacturers this should also look at the factor of designing, graphics and performance and last but not least the mileage as thats where the Vitamin Money becomes a deciding factor

kriss you have a perfect point here, the cost can go reasonably low, as innovation can bring a nano out of 600 cc than why not a bike with 400 CC at a lesser cost

Both Ken & kriss anna made the same point it's only that ken thought that kriss is saying it's not possible for a 400 cc vtwin to be costed at 2.5 - 3 L i.e on the higher side..

btw even if a 400 cc is between 2.5 - 3 L yes...there will be buyers .Coming from a small place I have seen it's not the technology or the brand name but rather the feel of owing such machine that converts the mind of people into actually buying it...

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could be FZ1 and vmax/royalstar(cruisers)/R6

well Nano did not get many takers did it? ppl are still waiting for road reports and ownership experiences, i do not say india does not have capability but complaining is simple, how many of us would take a 5 yr loan for a bike besides this board? if i tell ppl even my gym coach FZ is for 75k or somebody else they go "oh my god" thts pricey......

But still people who have booked have a long waiting list and thats what shows the kind of market its catching slowly.

those waiting for road reports and all are mostly those who want to buy nano as their second car, and if u say 5 year loan on bike i had seen people taking 5 years loan way back in 2000 and 2001 for a simple bike as Kawasaki Bajaj 4s, so even today if the bike is launched it will definately have its own market and whoever comes first with such a product will dominate the market, and that can really bring a change in the 100 cc to 150 cc bike manufacturers market as they will have to be innovative and think something new to survive.

Oh yes, totally agree. I was quoting 3L on the higher side. But at the same time, I thought about it... a 400cc twin, fully loaded, with twin spar alu frame, engine engine being a stressed member, soft tyres, new alloys, fresh dies, 2-3 models to choose from, to recover all the costs of the R&D and all that, I think initial costs would be closer to 3L even if it were totally locally manufactured. Take the example of the 150cc R15. Look at the pricing with Zero R&D going into it save for the fairing. Now how much do you think a 400cc would cost on similar lines but not a monocylinder and also considering the fact that it would sell much less than the 150!

i am not denying any fact, but you are forgetting high excise duties, also lets to a practical survey even after road reports, for eg most ppl in see on xbhp are one's who talk abt bikes and they own activa or dio or something, and next step they want to own is a car being more practical approach for there family, and believe me if u have a car its a symbol of respect in india, go anywhere from a dhaba to a mall. The perception beyond enthusiasts and boards like Xbhp is way different, if what we consider is right 100cc bikes would have phased out by now! why would tata give idea of 1 lakh car even birth? its been arn 5 yrs if pulsar launch and Yamaha comes with another 150 in the market, 250cc kinetic met a dead fate, even though i feel that was an awesome looking bike with good rideability and all, but believe me Indian commuter ideology is still strong. I know guys 5"10 - 6" height who can afford pulsar but will go for punty bikes like platina 125cc for mileage etc. i used to think abt performance too but after looking at them my perspective changed drastically.

Was out of loop.

I know nothing in your comparison. You must be joking.

But let me try. Internationally, all current modern bikes below 600 cc are single cylinder with liquid cooling mostly used as dirt bikes and dual purpose machines. Many of them have modern inputs like FI, four valves etc. Notable exceptions are Honda VTR and Baby Ninja which are twin cylinder and are sports bike.

Well all the above single cylinder bikes are using either 96 X 62(450), 85 X 75(450), 74 X 62(250), or near identical specs, where bore is more than 1.2 times of the stroke. The road going sports bikes of all sizes have even shorter stroke in comparison to their bores with the exception of Yamaha Dragstar 250 (44 X 66 Twin) . So you got my point. Short stroke in comparison to bore. With the single cylinder, the cost can be kept quite low for production in India. In a single cylinder configuration, the bore (62 mm or more) would still make good torque in comparison to what is available on Indian bikes. As I hope.

great explanation

great xplanation, this should be gone and explained to those R&D people who sleep in their labs giving us this all outdated models with just fairing changes.

this took a whole 4 days to complete the whole thread ........

@ken ---- as always, its good to read your thread.......
@hash101 ---- first of all very lovely points by you........ it was more than informative....... it may make a person think for his demand......... have few doubts but not here.........
n one more thing(OT)-- your avatar name........ is this the same thing which we like ........
@mindgrinder ----- few good points by you too.......

this thread is too goooooood.........

one thing @ken & @hash (pls dnt take it otherwise)----- have you people tried the road between Kolkata n Siliguri........ few of the xbhp-ians tried and they were surprised....... just putting this after reading that ken did 700km in 7hrs (we all know you travel a lot & its good to read your tavelogue)....... can any1 do this stretch of 600kms in 8hrs ........
(just kidding ken)

n if What Next ----- hmmmmmm......... ok Baby Ninja will be there....... so next is there and we may see some competition too ........ so what next maybe 400cc........

Good you read through all of it.

How I wish. This is precisely the point of the article.

@pads: Thanks for the appreciation. feels great to know that you found the thread good enough to spend 4 days on it! Your avatar guess is quite close. It does refer to the thing that you are probably thinking. However, I used to like that thing earlier untill one day i decided to quit. It's been a few clean years now. During those days I got into a habit of using hash101 as user name on most websites. I guess even though i have kicked the real thing, it's still got me hooked in the cyberspace!
about the kolkata-siliguri thing, I haven't really driven on that road ( a confession: I haven't really driven on most roads of India. I am what you call an armchair expert, I guess). But I have to say that there are a lot of roads out there in India that are equally bad. let's face it, when you buy an sbk in India you make a conscious decision to rough it out, take the good with the bad. You have to do this because india is still a poor country and hence it stands to reason that it's money must be spent on making roads that reach the remotest of villages. even if it means that the roads are only good enough for driving at 60kmph. i would rather take that than be driving on an indian autobahn while the majority of india does not have the roads.

I mean no offence here and I realise that I may be speaking without actually having seen the complete picture but i just saw the roads in the pakistan sbk thread. The roads were just awesome. I wonder how much of the money from humanitarian aid that pakistan receives each year went into making and maintaining these even as the poor there are living a life of misery. Some may disagree but that's okay, I am a huge believer of inclusive growth and seeing the way things are changing around me, I am very hopeful believer.

anyway, just read through the baby ninja thread where I saw a lot of whining about the price and dials,etc.. This just reinforces one of the things that i had said in my first post here. A lot of people say that they will buy a bike at a particular price. They do this because they rest safe in the knowledge that they are being merely asked whether they would consider buying it at that price. They know that no one is going to force them to buy the bike at that price later just because they said so earlier.
There may be a lot pf people who may have completely justifiable reasons. But I find it amusing that earlier the people just couldn't wait to get their hands on the baby ninja. Now that the baby ninja release looks in the offing and we have a speculated price of 3L, a lot of those very people think that it's "just a 30cc upgrade at the cost of 2.2 extra dough". I guess if we follow the same thought then there are a lot of 100cc bikes out there which can be bought at around 40k. Does that mean that the people who bought R15 were idiots because they paid 80k more for just and additional 50cc? I think this is just a refined version of the sour grapes situation.