Engine Oils

[B7ACKTHORN]

Guys , i do have a query. Please bear with me if it sounds stupid. When ever i drain the old oil. I let is drip off to the last drop which usually takes 15min. So at this point i assume there is no old oil or very little old oil (40-50ml) somewhere around the engine. But when i am filling in the new oil i can only fill some 1l and some where leser than another 100ml and tjen the inspection window shows oil has reached full mark.

Well the thing is wouldn't this mix of some odd 100ml of old oil and rest new oil reduce the life of the oil ?
And more importantly, is it ok if i crank the engine up to get the full oil out while i have removed the drain bolt and allowed the oil to drain off ? Will this assist in giving a clean oil drain...?

P.S : i did try tilting the bike to one side for more effective draining. But still considerable amount of oil remains in the engine.

Cheers
Ride safe
Krishna

You need to take lots into consideration. A bike with lots of oil circulation chambers externally as a 220 needs more time and mind you, there is a significant amount of oil still lodged up inside those oil coolers, tubes and the engine itself. Cranking the engine, with no oil is not a bad idea, the engine oil ins't completely drained like overhauling the engine. There is enough oil to lubricate the parts still lodged inside the crevices, but not any more than a few seconds, because heat is the "devil" as a bike without oil heats up and can cause seizure if run for more than 15 mins without oil.

But starting up and running the engine to remove the excess oil for a 20 to 40 seconds is in no way gonna harm any of the internals. Been doing this for all the bikes I have. (BUT KEEP IT IN SECONDS) 50 seconds max (my usage). And give the bike a nice shake left right, you should get well over 200 to 300 ML

If I did say that , I have made a mistake . Please excuse .
SAE engine oil and gear(transmission oil) numbers are on a different scale , so they are not directly comparable . SAE90 grade gear oil (EP or not) is nearly same to a SAE40 grade motor oil ( mono grade 40 , NOT a multigrade like 20w40 etc ) . Actually it's between SAE30 and SAE40 engine oil grade . This is when it's at normal temperatures . Then the 20w40 multigrade engine oil is like a SAE20 monograde oil in viscosity .
However the SAE90 oil is not multigrade , so when temperature rises to near engine's operational temps and the 20w40 starts behaving like a 40 grade oil in film retention and viscosity(flow) then they would be nearly similar in these properties . Nearly , but not the same .... there are other differences between the behaviours of a single grade oil and a multigrade . Even when hot , SAE90 gear oil's behaviour would be very close to that of a single grade SAE30 to SAE40 engine oil .
Now EP(extreme pressure) additives are sulphur compounds added to gear oils . In olden days , truckers used to actually pour powdered sulphur into their transmissions and axles . It forms a film on the gear teeth metal and prevents wear from the constant meshing action(shear) of the gears . EP oils are not to be used where bronze, brass and copper bush and shims etc are used , it corrodes them .
Guess I have been able to complicate the matter further for you all .

My advice is to immediately drain the oil hot and throughly , and refill with fresh oil . Never be away when fluids are added to your bike or parts are replaced .

Nope Pinaki ji. That was spot on. And the truckers pouring powdered phosphorus into axles is an all new thing to me. Will learn more about it.

[krish2778]

You can't drain the oil completely from engine by opening drain bolt. There are oil pockets in the engine that can't be drained. By tilting the bike both ways, you can drain a little from those pockets but not all. As you fill new oil the little left old oil gets diluted (almost), it won't cause any harm to engine.

And what do you mean by cranking? Electric start? If so, never do that. Instead you can push down the kick rod slowly to move the crank, enabling draining of the oil thats trapped.

Bike has no kicker brother, hence the query. And oil is getting held back in the oil cioler , radiator and many other small pockets , so i wanted to get it out tooo, had read somewjre where people start the bike for short time ile drainjng to get the full oil out from the engine (well.almost full of it) so just wanted to check i anybody practises that technique, guess vijay has done it.

Bro, as far as i know, the whole oil drains out once you the drain bolt is opened (might be wrong). Very miniscual amount of oil is left inside the engine and other areas. This will have no effect incase fresh oil gets mixed with it. The oil performance depends completely on your usage pattern.

Also, never ever crank your engine when there is no oil in it. The oil does the work of cooling the engine. There are chances that, the engine might seize up. Cranking up will not let the remaining oil in the engine drain out. DONT EVER DO IT!!

Also, all smaller capacity (100-150cc) engines have oil sump size of 900ml to 1L.

Cheerz!!

The oil cooler and raiditorakes thing a bit complicated. And we need 1.2l of oil during oil change.

Thanks for the tips btw.

You need to take lots into consideration. A bike with lots of oil circulation chambers externally as a 220 needs more time and mind you, there is a significant amount of oil still lodged up inside those oil coolers, tubes and the engine itself. Cranking the engine, with no oil is not a bad idea, the engine oil ins't completely drained like overhauling the engine. There is enough oil to lubricate the parts still lodged inside the crevices, but not any more than a few seconds, because heat is the "devil" as a bike without oil heats up and can cause seizure if run for more than 15 mins without oil.

But starting up and running the engine to remove the excess oil for a 20 to 40 seconds is in no way gonna harm any of the internals. Been doing this for all the bikes I have. (BUT KEEP IT IN SECONDS) 50 seconds max (my usage). And give the bike a nice shake left right, you should get well over 200 to 300 ML

Ah , exactly my thoghts mate. I was having the same thoughts and just wanted to conform it or rather seek advice. Will wait for a few more advice and do accordingly.

Cheers
Ride safe
Krishna

[muztariq]

But starting up and running the engine to remove the excess oil for a 20 to 40 seconds is in no way gonna harm any of the internals. Been doing this for all the bikes I have. (BUT KEEP IT IN SECONDS) 50 seconds max (my usage). And give the bike a nice shake left right, you should get well over 200 to 300 ML

Thats a very bad practice and not recommendable. To take out 100 ml of oil you have been doing a completely non-standard procedure. I would never crank the engine without oil.

The mentality that residual oil is bad for the engine is incorrect. The left over oil is harmless to the engine. Once diluted with a fresh oil, its no where to be seen. I would not even do engine flush to take out that oil. Never seen truck owners tilting there trucks to take out the left over oil and they work 100 times more than our engines, overloaded most of the times, 100 times more time on the road than us.. Imagine a truck/bus ran 1Lakh km spent around three times more on the road than the smallest car in town (Avg speed of 15km/hr vs 40km/hr)

I would rather tell ppl to stop thinking too much about oil change procedure.. Thinking too much will make you do these things -

1) How to take out the last drop of used oil to avoid 'contamination'
2) How to increase oil life - Adding additives
3) How to avoid mixing out of poor mineral with my brand new synthetic - Using engine flush
4) I have 10w30 in the engine, how do I add 20w40 without getting it mixed
5) Replacing oil when there is good amount of life left in it.
and there are some other examples too.

Choose a good engine oil for your machine and put it in following the procedures mentioned in your equipment's manual.

I have read more horror stories associated with engine flushes and additives than I have read praises.. all praises are placebos for sure. But, engine gaskets starting to leak and oil consumption increased after flush usage are stories that are for real.

This guy uses diesel as an engine flush-

Engine flush - YouTube

See what this guy does -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r20tiXufJRY

its a universal vehicle additive - Add half in 'fuel tank' and half in 'engine oil'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4G40xjJd8Q

[Honda_CBF]

I would never crank an engine with empty crankcase/oil sump, even if it is ok. Simply because I want more protection than just 'ok'. Just drain max possible amount of oil by tilting bike to both sides and then fill new oil till max mark. Even 1~2 mm overfilling won't harm. Even, maruti suggest to change oil and filter. Then replace new filter (apply a fine coat of oil on filter threads and mating surface) and then fill oil till max mark. But I also fill the filter with oil. Just for being safe and having more protection and the most important, peace of mind

[ravi@17bhp]

You need to take lots into consideration. A bike with lots of oil circulation chambers externally as a 220 needs more time and mind you, there is a significant amount of oil still lodged up inside those oil coolers, tubes and the engine itself. Cranking the engine, with no oil is not a bad idea, the engine oil ins't completely drained like overhauling the engine. There is enough oil to lubricate the parts still lodged inside the crevices, but not any more than a few seconds, because heat is the "devil" as a bike without oil heats up and can cause seizure if run for more than 15 mins without oil.

But starting up and running the engine to remove the excess oil for a 20 to 40 seconds is in no way gonna harm any of the internals. Been doing this for all the bikes I have. (BUT KEEP IT IN SECONDS) 50 seconds max (my usage). And give the bike a nice shake left right, you should get well over 200 to 300 ML

I am afraid but your practice can cause severe damage to engine internals. With just the left over oil, there will not be enough pressure in the engine and the engine internals are severely depleted of proper lubrication.

[B7ACKTHORN]

Muztariq is very true, most wouldn't do that. And as a cautionary I used (my usage) I still remember how heedful I was with my Victor, always watching what the mechanic what he does when I bought my bike. Later I happen to see this guy in TVS SVC named Anil Kumar, whom conincidentally happen to meet, as he called me up to pick my bike after changing the oil.

Normally, most people wouldn't mind (at least the commoners) just want to get their bike's oil changed and zoom. But it's the enlightened that always wants to get the best, and in the thirst of such perfection, we get into all sort of tangled thoughts.

This guy Anil (a humble guy BTW) asked upon the same, recommended me first as a no (not a strict no) And I told him some mechanics do that, and what he replied was this. You can start your engine, but not an "OVERHAULED engine" that's just been done some engine work, in the process, which loses the avlbl oil in the engine, which equates to almost a new engine, that's when you shouldn't start.

But when asked can I do that in my bike. He just smiled and said, you can, but not for long time, as it can cause piston seizure. And that's when I thought, even if something's detrimental, done in proper, taken care of way, this isn't gonna hurt the bike.

As lame as it sounds, and as Muzz rightly pointed squeezing the last drop by cranking the engine, isn't the best idea. Perhaps some do and perhaps some don't.

But whatever you do, always ask someone who is very knowledgable before you start experimenting, that way you know what you're doing and the the success rate of it.

Because if everyone followed the same path, no one would have ever been able to get creative, at the same time heedful of the consequences.

Cheers!
VJ

[krish2778]

Hmmm..thanks for the advice friends. Since most favor not to do so I will be staying away from it.
Don't want to take any risks not for the near future anyway.

Cheers
Ride safe
Krishna

[muztariq]

Do this -

Rub your hands for 10 sec vigorously. You cant continue to do it.. if it is done vigorously.

Rub your hand with a small film of oil for 10 sec vigorously. Nearly the same heat is produced.

Its replenishment of oil that saves your engine from overheating and not just the presence.

50 sec of an engine run without oil is suicidal.. I would say even 2-3 sec is long enough.. That is what it takes for the freshly put oil to reach the desired places.

[ravi@17bhp]

Hmmm..thanks for the advice friends. Since most favor not to do so I will be staying away from it.
Don't want to take any risks not for the near future anyway.

Cheers
Ride safe
Krishna

Doing so your piston might not seize, but without oil, the engine internals rub very harsh inducing faster wear out.

[B7ACKTHORN]

Do this -

Rub your hands for 10 sec vigorously. You cant continue to do it.. if it is done vigorously.

Rub your hand with a small film of oil for 10 sec vigorously. Nearly the same heat is produced.

Its replenishment of oil that saves your engine from overheating and not just the presence.

50 sec of an engine run without oil is suicidal.. I would say even 2-3 sec is long enough.. That is what it takes for the freshly put oil to reach the desired places.

Guys, follow your own rules, it was just my opinion, and I clearly stated that. Yes, it's detrimental, but make sure you know the limits, just a few rotations of the piston won't do any harm, and the fact that I got it verifed by the top mech doesn't mean all will be comfortable with this idea. But it's all upto ones own discretion. As a matter of fact, the video Muzz posted, the guy using Diesel is far worse, but it's always wise to experiement within your limits and even the video stated the same.

So far my Vic has clocked close to 75k and it's headjob done at 55k intentionally. Nothing detrimental observed, of course heedful of the things.

Cheers!
VJ

[Pinaki]

... When ever i drain the old oil. I let is drip off to the last drop which usually takes 15min. So at this point i assume there is no old oil or very little old oil (40-50ml) somewhere around the engine. But when i am filling in the new oil i can only fill some 1l and some where leser than another 100ml and tjen the inspection window shows oil has reached full mark.
Well the thing is wouldn't this mix of some odd 100ml of old oil and rest new oil reduce the life of the oil ?
And more importantly, is it ok if i crank the engine up to get the full oil out while i have removed the drain bolt and allowed the oil to drain off ? Will this assist in giving a clean oil drain...?

You can kick it a few times if your bike has a kicker , but that's it . Do not start her up or something . Drain the oil when it's quite very hot . You can leave the bike for a few hours or overnight (with the dipstick in, so that something doesn't get in there in the meantime) .. and then tilt her again to drain off some more of it . Despite all your efforts there shall remain some 100-150ml of oil stuck in there , which is good ... it's designed to stay put insides for a reason . Yes , when you fill in your fresh new oil , the remnants of the old oil does mix with it and spoils it's virginity somewhat ... but that's how motorcycle oil sumps are designed and nothing you can do about it so stop worrying about that . Just give your bike fresh oil often enough and she'll purr along just fine .
Also after filling your fresh oil , the oil level indicated immediately by the dipstick isn't very accurate . Check it ten minutes after a ride with bike on mainstand on flat ground a few days after filling . Then keep check at least once a month .

[shoeb2015]

Then keep check at least once a month .

LOL,Pinaki jee. All the bikes are not splendors.


@Krish
IMO,Changing the oil timely and when the engine is hot is more than enough.

[Pinaki]

Out there , i.e excluding the paranoids on xbhp oil thread , there are millions of daily riders who have never checked oil level in their entire life and doesn't know how to do that too . I know a guy who fills the drained oil(at a mechanic) from "early drainers" like me and has been running his Splendor on that for years n years . If I spot him stopped near there I don't even slow down for the traffic signal there - just seeing that dirty brown oil going in gives me goosebumps . So considering all the "normal" people out there , I think we should be thankful to whatever deity motorcycles are now assigned , if everyone does check their oil level once a month . Nahi ?

[B7ACKTHORN]

Out there , i.e excluding the on xbhp oil thread , there are millions of daily riders who have never checked oil level in their entire life and doesn't know how to do that too . I know a guy who fills the drained oil(at a mechanic) from "early drainers" like me and has been running his Splendor on that for years n years . If I spot him stopped near there I don't even slow down for the traffic signal there - just seeing that dirty brown oil going in gives me goosebumps . So considering all the "normal" people out there , I think we should be thankful to whatever deity motorcycles are now assigned , if everyone does check their oil level once a month . Nahi ?

Hahahaha!And I think I've mentioned a same case in point, you remember the M80 guy, long back. Except it was a different mix of oils, rather than a drained oil. And the guy saying "what did you do, it is flying" My oh my!

And Krish, a heated up oil drains faster as the oil gets thinner and more flowy. It's been recommended by almost everyone, as the easy and effective way. Perhaps I remember we spoke earlier about this, personally I guess on the same topic.

Cheers!
VJ

[krish2778]

Thanks all for the suggestion, will go forward woth it.
Will drain when it's a bit hot.

@vijay : ah , yes .....now i remember. Wonder if rhw early 20's is the right age for memory loss

Cheers
Ride safe
Krishna