Engine Oils

[raging_bull]

Re: Engine Oils

First of all can you show me where it has been written that its mandatory to use Synthetic oil in every bike?
Secondly, when people have witnessed synthetic oil being used faster than semi and mineral, why are you forcing them (with posts) to get Synthethic. They have read , witnessed what have been written, let them choose the oil.
Thirdly, I hope you didnt mean any dis-regard to the bold part. If yes, then no one can change your perception. If no, then good.

There is a phrase ,"To each his own". You have put your point, me and others have been doing it for sometime. Let the rider decide.
PERIOD

Before I say anything about oils. I request you to visit the 'Yamaha R25' thread. I have no bias towards any manufacturer and nothing against any.

I didn't force or even tell anyone to use any oil. The other guy was telling someone not to use synthetics until the bike crosses 10k. And he thinks synthetics are for those who go for long trips, you only get a smoothness by using it and mineral or semi synthetic is better for engine life!
It doesn't matter what or where he read. He can do whatever he wants with his bike. But this is a public forum. And I think I have the liberty to express my opinion as long as I have good intentions. Actually that was not my opinion. I just mentioned the well established facts.

And I very clearly said that I'm not sure why the RTRs and Pulsars have issues with fully synthetic oil but I mentioned two possible causes ie. prolonged use of other types of oils and to some extent not so great engineering when compared to the Japs and Europeans. Would you say that "I can't use fully synthetic oil in my bike because it's just too good"?

I know that you own an RTR 180 . And I didn't question your experience or knowledge.
As you said, let the rider decide, but let's not make it dark by closing our eyes .
Yamaha thread, Yamaha guys. TVS thread, TVS guys. @The Monk @chaosaddict @Divya Sharan

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Raging bull...A synthetic oil is Good and better than mineral. That said a worn engine, or an engine which had aged and has larger machining or parts tolerance ,cannot use it for the simple reason that the smaller particles of FS will leak through...Secondly the cost of FS is really high. My personal preference is to use Mineral oil and change more times than retaining same oil for longer time/Kms. It is a known fact that New engine oil does have it's benefit . All of us have our own reason for our choices in the world , like my crazy experiment with Diesel oil in my bike...Some times things works out, sometimes it does not.

Yes! What you said is 100% true. But I've heard that if you move to synthetic oil on time, you can probably keep using it without any leaks for a long time. I was only trying to help. You don't have to wait for 10k km in a bike to use FS.

I know what change a fresh can of oil in the engine will feel like as a driver. It feels great. But if I'm given the option of filling fresh mineral oil vs filling fresh synthetic oil, I would always pick the latter. That's my only point. Why do people blame the technology and call it 'unnecessary'?!
Hehe I wish to know more about your experiment with HDEO. Will contact you once I get a new bike .

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

Before I say anything about oils. I request you to visit the 'Yamaha R25' thread. I have no bias towards any manufacturer and nothing against any.

Sir jee, you need to consider relatively older tech, new tech into the mix. RTRs, older Pulsars and Karizmas have engines that were basically designed years ago. The Karizma in fact derives its engine from Honda CRF 230, which is well; 30 years old.

The funda for "use FS oils post 10k" is that by that time one would have completely run in the engine plus mated the internals to all sorts of temperature and load. Hence the recommendation. But again, on ageing engines, the tolerances start to increase just a wee bit and that's when one starts to see FS oil leaking as its particulates are smaller w.r.t mineral. This logic applies for *relatively* older engines.

Newer engines found in Dukes/CBRs come with FS as standard. It's up to the user's discretion to use it or not. Doesn't mean older engines are poorly engineered.

[raging_bull]

Re: Engine Oils

Sir jee, you need to consider relatively older tech, new tech into the mix. RTRs, older Pulsars and Karizmas have engines that were basically designed years ago. The Karizma in fact derives its engine from Honda CRF 230, which is well; 30 years old.

The funda for "use FS oils post 10k" is that by that time one would have completely run in the engine plus mated the internals to all sorts of temperature and load. Hence the recommendation. But again, on ageing engines, the tolerances start to increase just a wee bit and that's when one starts to see FS oil leaking as its particulates are smaller w.r.t mineral. This logic applies for *relatively* older engines.

Newer engines found in Dukes/CBRs come with FS as standard. It's up to the user's discretion to use it or not. Doesn't mean older engines are poorly engineered.

Do you think I wrote all those posts without understanding the basics you just pointed out?!!!

You don't have to wait for 10k km in a motorcycle to use synthetic oil. Especially with the not so well built engines. If the engine gets used to the mineral stuff, it will have problems when you use synthetic oil. These are high revving air/oil cooled engines.

And if you can't use synthetic in your bike, keep using mineral oil. Why blame the technology and say that it's unnecessary.
I didn't tell anyone to use synthetic oil but just pointed out that it's the better technology and they might be able to use it in their bikes if they start using it early, before the engine wears with a mineral oil. Any objections?

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

And if you can't use synthetic in your bike, keep using mineral oil. Why blame the technology and say that it's unnecessary.
I didn't tell anyone to use synthetic oil but just pointed out that it's the better technology and they might be able to use it in their bikes if they start using it early, before the engine wears with a mineral oil. Any objections?

It would be nice if you not over react on responses here.
Had the engines been not-so-well-built, they'd not have lasted all these years? Why do Karizmas/Pulsars/RTRs still sell if they were so inferior?

Comparisons with cars can be done here too. Lets take the example of naturally aspirated Honda City VTec and a Lamborghini here. The VTec came with mineral oils as standard whereas Lambos use FS. Which Lambo have you heard/seen clocking over 1L kms? Does it have an inferior engine?

BTW, I used FS oils for about 8.5k kms without any issues. I stopped using them because they're highly priced.
Also, long distance tourers do prefer FS oils so that they need not carry an oil can with them everywhere. Finally, mineral vs FS is still a debatable topic like the Motoman's run in method. Both have there own set of followers.

As they say, to each his own!

[psr]

Re: Engine Oils

Hehe I wish to know more about your experiment with HDEO. Will contact you once I get a new bike .

Not all Diesel oils are equal, which you must be aware of by now...My search for a good oil started from my reading of an article on sudden and consistent failure of Cam,Rocker and drive train components in Porsche cars..It was found that due to tightening of Euro std., ZDDP a most important additive in engine oil for reducing wear, was removed to save Catcon over a period of time. This lead to the Porsche's engine wear out , and subsequently Porsche started using ZDDP separately in the oil or switched to Shell Rotella...Since I am aware of ZDDP's use in engine oil, I too started searching for an oil which would have it in> 1~2 % . Thus I found Shell Rimula R3x and R4 which are easily available and have MSDS as pertaining to India .
World wide many owners of Petrol and Diesel engines INCLUDING Bikes have switched to Shell Rotella long time back with excellent results....I had just followed them.

[raging_bull]

Re: Engine Oils

Comparisons with cars can be done here too. Lets take the example of naturally aspirated Honda City VTec and a Lamborghini here. The VTec came with mineral oils as standard whereas Lambos use FS. Which Lambo have you heard/seen clocking over 1L kms? Does it have an inferior engine?

City vs Lamborghini!
This is enough for me to understand the depth of knowledge you have in the subject. Hence I have decided not to continue with this discussion.

Also, long distance tourers do prefer FS oils so that they need not carry an oil can with them everywhere. Finally, mineral vs FS is still a debatable topic like the Motoman's run in method. Both have there own set of followers.

As they say, to each his own!

Are you saying that only long distance tourers and Lamborghini owners use FS oil?!!! AND mineral vs synthetic is not at all like Motoman theory. It has been proven umpteen number of times that synthetic oil is better than mineral oil. There is absolutely no doubt about that. The only debate is raised by people who don't know about its benefits. You really should look at the technical side of things to know why. It's high time you educate yourself about these basic things before talking about a supercar's engine.

Not all Diesel oils are equal, which you must be aware of by now...My search for a good oil started from my reading of an article on sudden and consistent failure of Cam,Rocker and drive train components in Porsche cars..It was found that due to tightening of Euro std., ZDDP a most important additive in engine oil for reducing wear, was removed to save Catcon over a period of time. This lead to the Porsche's engine wear out , and subsequently Porsche started using ZDDP separately in the oil or switched to Shell Rotella...Since I am aware of ZDDP's use in engine oil, I too started searching for an oil which would have it in> 1~2 % . Thus I found Shell Rimula R3x and R4 which are easily available and have MSDS as pertaining to India .
World wide many owners of Petrol and Diesel engines INCLUDING Bikes have switched to Shell Rotella long time back with excellent results....I had just followed them.

I know that diesel engine oil varies greatly and that if you pour in something without reading the specs, you might land in trouble. As I'm relatively new to the motorcycling scene, I have very little knowledge about the effect of HDEO in it, though it makes a lot of sense as I have sometimes felt that a motorcycle engine is more similar to a diesel engine than a petrol engine because of the extreme conditions within the engine . Many people say that the Rotella is actually better than many premium motorcycle oils. I too wish to join the experiment with my cars. I will PM you since we can't discuss it here.

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

City vs Lamborghini!
This is enough for me to understand the depth of knowledge you have in the subject LOL and I'm humbled by it. Hence I have decided not to continue with this discussion.

The discussion was on NA engines I suppose. Anyways since you are an expert on engines, I take your word! BTW, when did I say I was not a noob? Thanks to experts like you on the forum, we get to know things which were never known about before. I guess my posts are going OT and I'll stop for my own good.

[abhi7013]

Re: Engine Oils

City vs Lamborghini!
This is enough for me to understand the depth of knowledge you have in the subject LOL and I'm humbled by it. Hence I have decided not to continue with this discussion.

This line was not required by you.
Examples are given by taking subjects which are way too different from each other in order to understand the 'principle' behind it in a better way.
For example, to understand torque better, we can compare a ferrari engine with that of a locomotive engine to convey that though the latter has high capacity, it's top end is way too lesser than the former. This is just an example which is given when someone asks the difference between an r15 and a zmr.

Now looking at your attitude, you obviously will laugh your head off for comparing the ferrari and and the locomotive engine. What divya sharan did there was precisely the same. So it's pretty clear who has the 'expert' knowledge. It's just three months that you are in the forum, so please learn not to make open comments like the one i've quoted. If the other member was not offensive, we expect same from you. You are none to question other's knowledge. everyone are here to learn.

[raging_bull]

Re: Engine Oils

Sorry if I said something inappropriate. I didn't mean to hurt anyone. I just lost my temper when I saw repeated 'baseless' comments.

Where were you when people attacked me personally in the r25 thread? And what about the people who make fun of me by calling me Sir, sirjee etc? Let's Continue ot via pm. We will discuss about your "Ferrari : locomotive as R15 : zmr" via PM . And I don't think you have much to say about the real topic we have on hand.
Edit: I have made necessary changes. Hope it doesn't offend anyone anymore.

[abhi7013]

Re: Engine Oils

Sorry if I said something inappropriate. I didn't mean to hurt anyone. I just lost my temper when I saw repeated 'baseless' comments.

Where were you when people attacked me personally in the r25 thread? And what about the people who make fun of me by calling me Sir, sirjee etc? Let's Continue ot via pm. We will discuss about your "Ferrari : locomotive as R15 : zmr" via PM . And I don't think you have much to say about the real topic we have on hand.
Edit: I have made necessary changes. Hope it doesn't offend anyone anymore.

Yes you are right. I do not have much to offer as am learning a lot, specially regarding oils from the two people you've quoted.
Speaking of diesel oil, [MENTION=32286]psr[/MENTION] sir, if catcon is effected and needs to be cleaned due to the use of rimula, how do we know it? Are there any symptoms?

[psr]

Re: Engine Oils

Wohah .. what had happened here ? Seems like a war zone...Let us all cool down and stop "Complimenting " each other . Let us agree to disagree.
I wish to share a strange fact and OT...Lambos catch fire most and is the most combustible car..(sorry Nano). They had found that the rear mounted engine's ventilation system is below par for the kind of power and heat it produces...
I also learned that an Air cooled engine poses as much strain on all parts and oils as a Diesel engine.After understanding this fact only I was able to fully appreciate, why diesel oils have excess of ZDDP, and detergents. I also learned that the friction modifiers used in early cars ,actually turned the oil into gooey stuff when used in modern cars due to the amount of temperature transients , hence discontinued for use in modern cars. This helped in my getting convinced that a diesel engine oil with adequate ZDDP + Calcium Alkaryl will be best suited for the ZMA-R...My calculated risk actually did work ,and I am happy .

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Yes you are right. I do not have much to offer as am learning a lot, specially regarding oils from the two people you've quoted.
Speaking of diesel oil, @psr sir, if catcon is effected and needs to be cleaned due to the use of rimula, how do we know it? Are there any symptoms?

A catcon will die if there is frequent back fire, Oil ring leak leading to oil burning ,severe mechanical shocks , adulterated petrol leading to combustion by-products , etc... So the chance for a catcon to survive in Indian conditions is next to zero. You can find out if catcon is still working or not by the amount of CO and NX in exhaust , measuring before and after catcon...

[Vemisis]

Re: Engine Oils

Which motul oil is best for pulsar 200ns

Sent from my C1904 using xBhp Connect mobile app

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

There is no doubt that synthetic oils are better than mineral in every front. But, the problem with consumables are primarily dependent on cost vs benefit ratio.

Lets assume a bike priced 80K runs 1,00,000 km. In these kms it would see these many oil changes 1,00,000/3000 = 33! On a good quality mineral this would be 33*250 = INR 8250 and on a good synthetic it would be 33*750 = 24750 i.e you pay around INR 16500 extra. Now you can go for a complete piston kit replacement in this money!
Synthetic will not protect the engine so much so that kit replacement will be completely eliminated with the use of synthetics. It would merely prolong the life by max 10%. After this 10% is over it would also go for fresh bore.

Also after 50K kms on a bike the consumption of synthetic oil would be more and regular top ups with same synthetic oil is inevitable.
The second reason that go against the usage of synthetic oils is the terminology synthetic. Most of the synthetic oils that are available in the market are actually severely hydro-cracked mineral oil. Good synthetics cost 1000/litre. In INR 750/litre you only get refined mineral, nothing else. Thereby reducing the cost to benefit ratio further.
The costlier the equipment you have, the costlier protection it would demand. R15s and KTMs come with semi-synthetic recommendation. CBR250 comes with Synthetic recommendation.. all because of sophistication of the engine. An enfield is also having a costly engine but the lack of sophistication renders it less pricey to repair than a KTMs engine.
I would prefer keeping gold in a sand pot rather than sand in a gold pot. It boils down to what you want to protect.

Now, why HDEOs? Most of us are using synthetics primarily because of the smoothness and comfort it provides. HDEOs are capable of providing the same level of comfort as that of synthetics. This feat is primarily achieved by HDEOs because of the presence of high ZDDP content which acts a secondary friction reducer. Why can HDEOs have high level of ZDDP and motorcycle oils cant? Most of the HDEOs are 15w40 grade and this grade (15w40) can have higher levels of ZDDP and was excluded from limiting phosphorus content from the API spec. Because heavy duty engines require more protection and these have large oil capacities, API acknowledges that use of synthetic oils in these vehicles does not benefit the cost vs benefit ratio and thats why excluded it from showing low phosphorus content. Please note Heavy duty engines would be very polluting but still!!

HDEOs vs Motorcycle oils(mineral)
HDEOs fair well because after 1000 km motorcylces running on mineral oil start showing discomfort but HDEOs doesnot (high ZDDP). Again if someone is using HDEOs because he thinks it would protect more than normal minerals than it is not true. Usual mineral grade motorcycle oils are equally good protecting under normal usage. Under sever usage, the HDEOs would be better protective.

I have been using Mobil 1300 15w40 HDEO from August 2012, haven't considered using a synthetic again. Minerals are impossible now on the bike. It's either Synthetic or HDEO and HDEO it is! Forever!
Came across this oil after coming to know lots of people using it around the world. The three widely used HDEOs are Chevron 400, Shell Rotella and Mobil 1300. Of these only Mobil 1300 and Rimula are available in India. Even the roadside mechanic near my house is using Castrol CRB Diesel EO from ages in motorcycles. So, what came quite late to me was actually being used from so long. I took the plunge as I always knew that the worst that would happen is clutch slippage! I was ready to revert back when that happens. I dont know when will I completely consume the 5L can I bought 1.5 years back. http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/help-me/...-oils-551.html

I would not suggest it for less than 100 cc bikes during cold weather. This oil (Mobil) is heavy! less than 100 cc may have initial oil circulation problem in cold weather. Need to feel the heaviness of Rimula to make a direct comparison.

[Anuj_Gupta]

Re: Engine Oils

Here goes my query .
Its time to change engine oil.on my 200ns
Bajaj oil is "world best" as we know ,it just gave up in 1600kms .
Now my problem is ,I want to use motul, but the thing is ,it is of green colour and svc will spot it in next service and void my warranty.
So I want good engine oil for 200ns that looks like the colour of Bajaj world best dtsi engine oil ,so that they won't get suspicious.

Sent from my LG-P765 using xBhp Connect mobile app

[forceedge]

Re: Engine Oils

Here goes my query .
Its time to change engine oil.on my 200ns
Bajaj oil is "world best" as we know ,it just gave up in 1600kms .
Now my problem is ,I want to use motul, but the thing is ,it is of green colour and svc will spot it in next service and void my warranty.
So I want good engine oil for 200ns that looks like the colour of Bajaj world best dtsi engine oil ,so that they won't get suspicious.

Sent from my LG-P765 using xBhp Connect mobile app

Though it is not advisable to change to a synthetic oil before 10000 kms, but if you really insist then please go ahead with any of the synthetic available there. You can pour in Motul 300V(Green Colour & Superbe fragrance), but it would be an overkill in terms of price. I would advice you to go with 7100. It will save you few bucks. Don't worry about the colour of oil as it would not be the same when you will drain it. Goodluck Mate!!!