Lessons from the track: Performance braking : How to setup and brake effectively

[princesirohi]

this is a pretty old thread, but somehow i missed it, anyway, i would like to add some info and ask some questions--

first some info-

• do not cover rear brakes- it is very risky, coz sometimes you may need it. rear brake is not a useless thing provided on your bike, it has some purpose, let it serve the purpose. moreover, if your rear wheel locks and skids, you can still recover from it, but if front locks up, you will most certainly be kissing tarmac. so practise and use your rear brake judiciously. ofcouse major braking will be done by front brake but rear can always assist the front brake and in some situations application of rear along with front is a must. so, practise.
• entering a corner too hot- it is mentioned that use countersteering ... well, i have never tried counter steering in a leaned position, so no comments. instead i have an alternate approach-start braking slightly with with rear and if comfortable with front too while holding the throttle at whatever point it is, taking care not to overdo it and brake application must be gradual. simultaneously start leaning as much as possible, so you are leaning, somewhat heavily and braking somewhat lightly, this way you can manage the turn. ofcourse you must know your and your bike's limit, how much you can safely lean, how much you can brake. your wheels will not lock since engine is giving some power to wheels and you are applying brakes so it will safely slow down, lean and take the turn. //// there's one more method too, but i can't vouch for it. you can increase the throttle so that you can lean much more and take a tighter line. ofcourse many will debate it and it works only in certain conditions not always. so better not depend on it, this was just for info.

now the question-

it is advised to sit back and upright while braking so as not to uneccessarily load up the front.

BUT

braking theory says, best braking comes when you apply brakes specially front one gradually, so weight is transfered to front wheel. more weight means more tyre grip on road, more grip means less chances of wheel lock and skid, so you can brake harder and apply more brake. this is the funda of gradual braking or staged braking.

SO

if we do not sit back upright and instead lean forward and put more body weight on handle bars, won't it load up the front more so more tyre grip less chances of wheel lock and skid and so we can brake still harder...???

any experienced rider plz explain??

[Ryder]

Nice write up. But if you really want to learn any of the stuff written here, take your bike to the track...period! Now it's even easier with the likes of indimotard, apex racing and the css. There is a lot of info out on the web, but for reference there is nothing like the twist of the wrist series / doing a couple of track days and learning what works out for u. All the best

[Honda_CBF]

now the question-

it is advised to sit back and upright while braking so as not to uneccessarily load up the front.

BUT

braking theory says, best braking comes when you apply brakes specially front one gradually, so weight is transfered to front wheel. more weight means more tyre grip on road, more grip means less chances of wheel lock and skid, so you can brake harder and apply more brake. this is the funda of gradual braking or staged braking.

SO

if we do not sit back upright and instead lean forward and put more body weight on handle bars, won't it load up the front more so more tyre grip less chances of wheel lock and skid and so we can brake still harder...???

any experienced rider plz explain??

bike's weight will automatically start shifting toward front with braking, its said about the rider; no need to ladden the handel bar & keep the arms load (upper body weight) free so the you can counter stear, stear & use other controls effortlessly.
And counter stearing works wonders while leaning, try it sometime!
Btw, i think i've less experience than you..

[princesirohi]

Nice write up. But if you really want to learn any of the stuff written here, take your bike to the track...period! Now it's even easier with the likes of indimotard, apex racing and the css. There is a lot of info out on the web, but for reference there is nothing like the twist of the wrist series / doing a couple of track days and learning what works out for u. All the best

well, if you can lend me some money on a "take it and forget it" basis, i would love to attend the CSS. period.

man, not everybody can afford everything, so there's no harm in discussing and sharing knowledge. everybody knows that CSS and other schools are the best place to learn things.


@HOnda_CBF: i was talking about straight line panic braking kind of situations, where we do not have to counter steer or steer or use any other controls. so you do counter steering while leaning. how much leaned, i mean slightly or heavily.??
man, i am touched by your last line, buddy ... no need to underestimate yourself... you may be youger and still posses more knowledge, and i have no problem learning from a younger rider. always keep on learning good things, thats how we can improve.

[Brat]

so you do counter steering while leaning. how much leaned, i mean slightly or heavily.??

Have not been to CSS but have hit the track on a few occasions. Some of my buddies who have more throttle control and track experience, start counter steering from the apex, they setup/enter the corner carrying more momentum with trail brake.

Once they hit the apex, they light up the rear, when the rear steps out - they decrease lean angle, counter steer and compensate for the loss of traction.

By the time they hit their exit marker their torque curve begins and also traction catches up - which enables them to shave off more than a tenth of a sec.

[sunny_]

bike's weight will automatically start shifting toward front with braking, its said about the rider; no need to ladden the handel bar & keep the arms load (upper body weight) free so the you can counter stear, stear & use other controls effortlessly.

Moreover, shifting from leaned position to an upright position while braking helps aerodynamically as well to shed off speed, so its a better option.

[princesirohi]

Have not been to CSS but have hit the track on a few occasions. Some of my buddies who have more throttle control and track experience, start counter steering from the apex, they setup/enter the corner carrying more momentum with trail brake.

Once they hit the apex, they light up the rear, when the rear steps out - they decrease lean angle, counter steer and compensate for the loss of traction.

By the time they hit their exit marker their torque curve begins and also traction catches up - which enables them to shave off more than a tenth of a sec.

this is very different than what Honda_CBF was telling. what you are saying is "steering with rear wheel" you enter a corner too hot and brake hard, somewhere near the apex you give the rear brake a jab and rear wheel starts to skid and rear wheel moves out aligning the bike with corner exit at the same time you counter steer to prevent from falling, very soon the rear again gains traction and you take the exit.

what honda_CBF was telling is to counter steer to avaoid hitting an obstacle which appeared suddenly out of nowhere in a turn or if you enter a turn too fast, you lean and counter steer, for a moment your bike will be unsettled and then it will settle for a tighter line. this does not involve any rear wheel skidding.

rear wheel skidding is for race track only, too dangerous for streets

Moreover, shifting from leaned position to an upright position while braking helps aerodynamically as well to shed off speed, so its a better option.

aerodynamics has no or very little role at speeds we ride in india, specially in braking.

@ Honda_CBF: your method works man, just tried it a few hours ago at moderate lean angle. still not sure how much i will be confident at counter steering in heavily leaned position.

[Brat]

this is very different than what Honda_CBF was telling. what you are saying is "steering with rear wheel" you enter a corner too hot and brake hard, somewhere near the apex you give the rear brake a jab and rear wheel starts to skid and rear wheel moves out aligning the bike with corner exit at the same time you counter steer to prevent from falling, very soon the rear again gains traction and you take the exit.

what honda_CBF was telling is to counter steer to avaoid hitting an obstacle which appeared suddenly out of nowhere in a turn or if you enter a turn too fast, you lean and counter steer, for a moment your bike will be unsettled and then it will settle for a tighter line. this does not involve any rear wheel skidding.

rear wheel skidding is for race track only, too dangerous for streets

Everything right except for jabbing the rear brake part. rear brakes at apex would result in a low-side crash. Instead, at apex - due to minimal traction just a small overdose of throttle is enough to spin the rear wheel. Holding that line and Counter steering at the same time will tighten up exit line enormously and this is very handy if anyone overcooks a corner. Yes, for track only.

The streets are way too unpredictable to enter a corner too fast. Personally, i haven't had surprising obstacles during mid-turn, when it does - i'd rather gradually grab a handful of front brakes and run wide if it is too late to counter steer.

[princesirohi]

ok, so it is throttle and not the brake than causes rear wheel slide.

ok, since you have been to a track, one more question to you- when you take a corner, do you keep the clutch engaged or disengaged.

one way to take a corner is you approach a corner, pull-in clutch, brake accordingly, start leaning, keep on braking, gradually release brake and lean as much as you can shift to correct gear required for exit, slowly straighten your bike and release clutch come out of corner.

another approach can be use engine braking along with brakes and downshift and again use engine braking along with brakes and again downshift now you start leaning and hold the throttle at desired speed, lean as much as you want, take the corner and near apex start accelerating can come out of corner.

which of the two ways is good and advised. i think the second method is a bit jerky and too time consuming to take fast corners. what do you think is the correct method, or is there any other method also apart from one we discussed earlier (the sliding one). how do they do it in motogp or wsb or bsb.

[Ryder]

well, if you can lend me some money on a "take it and forget it" basis, i would love to attend the CSS. period.

there is no free meal brother..what are u willing to do for it..

You don't have to go to css to benefit. if there is no access to a track, it's better you can save some money, and rent out one of those bikes which these track day teams offer. It will do magic to ur riding skills. I am sure some of them are offering bikes rental and it doesn't cost the earth.

[Brat]

ok, so it is throttle and not the brake than causes rear wheel slide.

ok, since you have been to a track, one more question to you- when you take a corner, do you keep the clutch engaged or disengaged.

one way to take a corner is you approach a corner, pull-in clutch, brake accordingly, start leaning, keep on braking, gradually release brake and lean as much as you can shift to correct gear required for exit, slowly straighten your bike and release clutch come out of corner.

another approach can be use engine braking along with brakes and downshift and again use engine braking along with brakes and again downshift now you start leaning and hold the throttle at desired speed, lean as much as you want, take the corner and near apex start accelerating can come out of corner.

which of the two ways is good and advised. i think the second method is a bit jerky and too time consuming to take fast corners. what do you think is the correct method, or is there any other method also apart from one we discussed earlier (the sliding one). how do they do it in motogp or wsb or bsb.

I always keep clutch disengaged at corners. Although we think clutching in before/during entry is making the bike slow down - it might not be entirely accurate. Infact it makes the rear wheel spin free with momentum and does not take advantage of whatever little traction is available at the rear during the entry stage. When you slow down from a 190k straight line at 4th to enter a 2nd gear corner around 120k, if you dont utilize engine braking during downshift and clutch-in - chances are you will either be overtaken at the entry itself, even if you take up defensive line. Or you will run wide due to lack of adequate brake force and traction. Whereas, allowing the rear wheel to grip and help slowdown by not clutching in will make a difference of 5ft - 6ft when you're trying to shed 70k within a very short distance - given the amount of momentum.

I am not experienced enough to comment on what is the 'right' way to do it and frankly not sure how they do it in motogp or wsbk, since there are many things to learn for myself. But - i can share how i was taught to do it - i dont know if it is right or wrong,

It is always recommended to enter slow and exit fast than vice-versa, always spot your 3 markers while taking a corner; Entry, Apex and Exit. The slower we go, the more easier it is to connect the dots, gradually we can up the pace and maintain accuracy (line) to achieve better cornering.

While setting up your corner, do all your braking and downshifting before entering the corner itself. There should be no braking/acceleration/counter-steering or any status-quo at mid-corner.

1) Come out of crouch, sit-up (and slam into the wall of air) - begin to load the front suspension using front brakes (this will automatically start the forward weight transfer) at the same time.

2) By now, once you have fallen out of powerband, begin downshifting one by one till you get into the right gear for the corner (downshifting too early can lock-up the rear wheel - pls be smooth) and progressively increase brake force up front before you hit the entry marker - till you hit maximum braking. Look where you want to go and look as much into a corner as possible.

3) Begin lean-in slowly, with the weight shift. this part is a bit difficult to explain - but at one point you will feel the traction running out due to lean angle and that is your cue to stop braking. Select your line and trajectory, select your entry gear. Do not pull in the clutch as it will upset rear wheel traction. Maintain.

4) Turn-in at the marker. Hold a steady pace and make sure the transitions are as smooth as possible and there are no sudden or jerky inputs that upset's balance, momentum or line. Max out lean angle at apex and get ready to exit.

5) After you're past the apex, It is now time to remove the load from the front wheel and send it to the rear. Opening up the throttle slightly will unload the front suspension and rear tyre will begin gripping.

6) Slowly and gradually approach the exit with smooth increasing throttle. recover from lean as needed and straighten out the line. Make sure not to jam open the throttle, you wont go any faster but only end-up upsetting the harmonics and low-siding.

7) As soon as you enter powerband, couch as necessary - by now the rear wheel will have regained traction, complete the exit.

[princesirohi]

^^ the method you have described is the second method i mentioned, however in the first line you said you do not follow it and instead go for clutch-in method and that is the first method i described. any specific reason for that ??

any specific advantages/disadvantages of both method.

[Brat]

I always keep clutch disengaged at corners.

^^ the method you have described is the second method i mentioned, however in the first line you said you do not follow it and instead go for clutch-in method and that is the first method i described. any specific reason for that ??

any specific advantages/disadvantages of both method.

Not sure whether i had mentioned that i clutch-in. I always have clutch disengaged (As in: clutch-out) at corners for safety purposes, helps you feel out the traction level more precisely and you will automatically understand when to downshift based on engine brake, this inspires more confidence during turn-in. I dont see any other advantage of this method except for shortened stopping distance, balanced brakeforce distribution, gradual front weight loading instead of suddenly snapping the suspension and disturb the bike's harmony.

I dont know of any advantages of the clutch-in method, frankly - it is too scary when i try it, as i will have no rider feedback about either traction, how much speed i should carry into the corner, what gear to select, etc.
The only thing you have to work with is the brake feel, while it is more than adequate on streets - it is just not enough on track where we'll need several sources of input.

To me, it completely inhibits senses. So, i choose not to use it.

[Honda_CBF]

Oh I'm late, sorry for my late replies..

@HOnda_CBF: i was talking about straight line panic braking kind of situations, where we do not have to counter steer or steer or use any other controls. so you do counter steering while leaning. how much leaned, i mean slightly or heavily.??

ya i do counter steer while leaning, slight & heavy both kind of leaning. here with heavy i mean "normal" kind of heavy lean, not like GP racer. (i dont think our grip levels allow that)

Moreover, shifting from leaned position to an upright position while braking helps aerodynamically as well to shed off speed, so its a better option.

yup, I agree.

this is very different than what Honda_CBF was telling. what you are saying is "steering with rear wheel" you enter a corner too hot and brake hard, somewhere near the apex you give the rear brake a jab and rear wheel starts to skid and rear wheel moves out aligning the bike with corner exit at the same time you counter steer to prevent from falling, very soon the rear again gains traction and you take the exit.

what honda_CBF was telling is to counter steer to avaoid hitting an obstacle which appeared suddenly out of nowhere in a turn or if you enter a turn too fast, you lean and counter steer, for a moment your bike will be unsettled and then it will settle for a tighter line. this does not involve any rear wheel skidding.

rear wheel skidding is for race track only, too dangerous for streets

Nope, its not only for avoiding hitting its also for cornering..

for e.g. suppose i think of taking a corner in my bike at around 80kmph, but after entry & before mid corner, if i feel like "coming too hot" & the corner is only good for 70-75kmph then I'll counter-steer, insted of slowing down.

@ Honda_CBF: your method works man, just tried it a few hours ago at moderate lean angle. still not sure how much i will be confident at counter steering in heavily leaned position.

I'm glad it helped confidence will automatically come, keep practicing with safe & slow speeds and areas.

Everything right except for jabbing the rear brake part. rear brakes at apex would result in a low-side crash. Instead, at apex - due to minimal traction just a small overdose of throttle is enough to spin the rear wheel. Holding that line and Counter steering at the same time will tighten up exit line enormously and this is very handy if anyone overcooks a corner.

That's what I mean (tighter corner line). without overdoes of throttle.

Yes, for track only.

Nope. can also be applied to some road conditions.

when you take a corner, do you keep the clutch engaged or disengaged.

one way to take a corner is you approach a corner, pull-in clutch, brake accordingly, start leaning, keep on braking, gradually release brake and lean as much as you can shift to correct gear required for exit, slowly straighten your bike and release clutch come out of corner.

bad idea. can be okay in road conditions like taking a 30 degree corner at below 50 kmph. but its not recommended in high speeds. connection of engine to wheel to road is very very important. bike will feel stable.

another approach can be use engine braking along with brakes and downshift and again use engine braking along with brakes and again downshift now you start leaning and hold the throttle at desired speed, lean as much as you want, take the corner and near apex start accelerating can come out of corner.

that's my way of doing it

which of the two ways is good and advised. i think the second method is a bit jerky and too time consuming to take fast corners. what do you think is the correct method, or is there any other method also apart from one we discussed earlier (the sliding one). how do they do it in motogp or wsb or bsb.

for a starter (like me ) I'll recommend the above stated (my way) its much safer & rider can experiment while learning.
what I learned with it is - combine it with rev matching downshifts and its smooth like anything.. no jerks

And all other stuff like mid way corrections, over throttleing,trail braking, rear sliding, even heavy counter steering is for advanced riders.

The best way to start is-
approach at given speed (for controling only with throttle) through out the corner start leaning and hold the throttle at same & desired speed, lean as much as you want, take the corner and near apex start accelerating and come out of corner, all this in single gear (eliminating gear shifts)

[Abhijeet Bhattacharjee]

Correct way to negotiate corners very fast:
1. Approach the turn
2. Brake & shed speed to get to the desired speed of the turn
3. Finish the braking & then slide your butt off the seat (lean the bike less concentrate more on weight transfer)
4. When you're at the midcorner start accelerating slowly.
5. Regain upright position then accelerate hard out of the corner.
Tested at 95kmph
NOTE: Always blip on downshifts for smoother transitions & to avoid tyre skidding.