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  • Originally posted by Old Fox View Post
    Sagar: There is a common mis-conception about the basics of 'friction'. That friction depends on the area of contact. It does not. It depends upon the weight over that area of contact. One reason why you get more effective braking from the front wheel than the rear. And also why the rider is aked to squeeze the front brake lever rather than grab a handful of it for max braking. The point is to have a substantial weight transfer onto the front tyre before it is expected to provide a large braking force. And the 'one' reason why, even with a larger contact patch, the rear tyre cannot provide braking anywhere close to what the narrower front does.

    Getting back from the digression, less lean allows you more traction reserve: true.

    But the reason is not a larger contact patch. Modern symmetrical design tyres give you an alomst similar contact patch over the useable lean angle range. Hanging off keeps the bike relatively upright and this reduces the tangential component of the force that tries to slide the bike out of the turn, i.e. going off on a tangent to the turn's curvature. The steeper the lean angle - the greater is the tangential force that the traction has to counter. So, steeper lean angles of the bike allow you lesser traction reserves. Hanging off, and so 'un-leaning' the bike, gets you a 'traction-credit' that you can encash in case the already loaded suspension bottoms on a bump, the roads' coefficient of friction changes for the worse (shiny tar, old oil residue, gravel n dust etc etc) or you need to tighten the turn still further.

    Hanging off though is a trade-off, as killer and joel have repeatedly reiterated. In that the rider is not in the ideal position to control the bike, to receive feedback from his 'seat-of-the-pants', his feet are not where they can provide maximum weight transfer and the arms are unsymmetrically stretched. BUT the 'traction-credit' is SO VERY important to get that this trade-off does not actually seem like one.
    Hi Oldfox,
    Okay now even I am a little bit confused So if I understand you correctly, it is the tangential forces rather than the reducing contact patch of the tire of your leaning bike that reduce traction at a given corner and hanging off the bike in turn helps you counter these forces. Please correct me if I am wrong and help me get this right.
    Last edited by SAGARR_46; 01-06-2009, 01:24 AM.
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    • Originally posted by Sagar
      Originally posted by Techno
      Btw more contact also means more friction & hence less speed
      Also in my opinion more contact does not reduce speed when you are leaning a fair bit.
      Woh Joke tha bhai
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      • Originally posted by Technocrat View Post
        Woh Joke tha bhai
        Bloody hell!
        :)

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        • Originally posted by Technocrat View Post
          Woh Joke tha bhai
          Dude I need to thank you anyway because your joke indirectly prompted a reply from Old Fox which in turn is helping me better understand the true purpose behind leaning a bike with the right technique
          Watch my Baby R1 clock 148kmph at http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=cAHbYl...e=channel_page.

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          • Originally posted by SAGARR_46 View Post
            Hi Oldfox,
            Okay now even I am a little bit confused So if I understand you correctly, it is the tangential forces rather than the reducing contact patch of the tire of your leaning bike that reduce traction at a given corner and hanging off the bike in turn helps you counter these forces. Please correct me if I am wrong and help me get this right.
            DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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            • Sagar, What I would recommend is that you start noticing your speed at a particular corner(ask your friend for reference) with various techniques that we have discussed, with each experience you will get faster
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              • Pranay : I believe most of us have solved various physics numericals on leaning and road banking in 9th class

                And by the way "banking" of roads exists in India too.
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                • Originally posted by niks_devil666 View Post
                  Pranay : I believe most of us have solved various physics numericals on leaning and road banking in 9th class
                  ...And what we studied in 9th class still applies now. And thats what we are basically discussing.



                  Originally posted by niks_devil666 View Post
                  And by the way "banking" of roads exists in India too.
                  Yes, but not in most places they should be. Its getting better though.
                  DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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                  • @OldFox
                    Sir, thanks for the explanation there. This thread is helping me point by point in improving my cornering abilities but I am shit scared when I see sand even in middle of a corner.... expecting the roads to throw a surprise any where!

                    Well, I have one thing to ask you -

                    Originally posted by Old Fox View Post
                    But the reason is not a larger contact patch. Modern symmetrical design tyres give you an alomst similar contact patch over the useable lean angle range.
                    What are these modern tyres??? I know that the tires on R15 are sure the type you are speaking of... (tyre + the way it is mounted on a smaller rim to give contact patch when leaning). But, how far are the tyres used in other bikes we have here (that most of us ride) come under this category?

                    Is it enough that a tyre has the same pattern on both the sides from the center to be called a symmetrical design?

                    To me, most (not sure of all) of the MRF Zapper series tyres seem to be of symmetrical design. Am I right?
                    Last edited by HydBiker; 01-06-2009, 04:59 PM.

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                    • @ Pranay : I think the banking of roads is referred to as cambering

                      I quote from : Camber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      "In road construction, the convex curvature of a road surface, see cant (road/rail)"
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                      -Homer J Simpson

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                      • The race track at Chennai does not have banking angles. Its pure flat surface. Banking is on public roads normally. Unless its a NASCAR or Indycar race track.
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                        • Originally posted by Joel View Post
                          The race track at Chennai does not have banking angles. Its pure flat surface. Banking is on public roads normally. Unless its a NASCAR or Indycar race track.
                          If you look at most of the race tracks only the "high" speed corners have a banking (or cambering).Maybe its because they want the rider/driver to do most of the work and not the banking angle to help you out.
                          sigpicThe Moto Cafe - India's first bike theme cafe @ Chandni Chowk

                          The Moto Cafe video -
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XztkK4ej2U

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                          • Originally posted by niks_devil666 View Post
                            ....Maybe its because they want the rider/driver to do most of the work and not the banking angle to help you out.....
                            AFAIK, thats exactly why they don't have it in race tracks.

                            Originally posted by MavericK46 View Post
                            @ Pranay : I think the banking of roads is referred to as cambering

                            I quote from : Camber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                            "In road construction, the convex curvature of a road surface, see cant (road/rail)"
                            Hmm...had that somewhere in mind...but just didn't click...thanx anyways dude!
                            Last edited by pranay; 01-06-2009, 06:12 PM.
                            DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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                            • I'd like to add something here. While what old fox said is true, at the limits of lean you are always going to run out of tire contact patch and that WILL become an issue. So you have to take both the forces acting on the bike / tire as well as the contact patch into consideration. For example even on the superbikes with race profile tires, we are running past the shoulder of the tire and basically rounding it off. Thats how far we carry the lean and at that angle you're riding on VERY little tire. Ofcourse none of this is one the road. On an indian bike (apart from the R15) tire profiles are designed to provide the most contact patch while riding in a straight line and as you lean the bike you will run out of contact patch much sooner.
                              Last edited by Killer; 01-07-2009, 11:25 AM.
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                              • Originally posted by Killer View Post
                                I'd like to add something here. While what old fox said is true, at the limits of lean you are always going to run out of tire contact patch and that WILL become an issue. So you have to take both the forces acting on the bike / tire as well as the contact patch into consideration. For example even on the superbikes with race profile tires, we are running past the shoulder of the tire and basically rounding it off. Thats how far we carry the lean and at that angle you're riding on VERY little tire. Ofcourse none of this is one the road. On an indian bike (apart from the R15) tire profiles are designed to provide the most contact patch while riding in a straight line and as you lean the bike you will run out of contact patch much sooner.
                                If I may ask you, Killer, coming just to contact patch, even though the 220 and 200 has a wider tire, while leaning the R15 tire would have a greater contact patch than the tires on the these two. Of course, there is no doubt that the chassis geometry, weight, stickier tire compound, revvier engine are major factors that contributes to the R15 being much faster on the track, but just the isolating the contact patch between these two while leaning, would you think the patch on the R15 tires is equal to if not more on the pulsars' tires?

                                I say this because I actually feel that the R15 tire actually has a greater contact patch than these two at a certain angle, which helps it corner alot faster than the pulsars, besides the factors above.
                                DoN\'t LivE tO DiE, dIe tO LiVe

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