Superb photo, Killer!

@Joel:
Man, you never cease to impress us.
Amazing!

Thanks man. That was put very well. Thats what we have been echoing about the laptime we clocked. Its the SBK territory on an indian bike.

More than the results.. I am glad to see the respect between the competitors(read Joel and Cyclops) even in an argument.

Arguments are always part of game.. Even it kindles the competition.. still appreciating each others effort is the great sign of an healthy competition..

Kudos to all the teams.. great milestone for Indian bike Racing.. and lot more to reach..

Cheers!
MJ

+1 to that,
to quote a popular quote,

the means of reaching the destination is far more important than the destination

^thanks

i dont want to be rude but how can u even say that a jap supersport bike and a150cc bike have similar lap times and are in the same league
,isnt all indian racetracks designed for modded 150cc bikes ,the sbks are just too fast and heavy for such go-karting like corners
on tracks like MMSC ,thay even conduct go-karting races here .
u might as well ask why r15 is slower than gsxr on sepang race track

Lap Timings

The Indian Modified R15's should be appreciated and never ever to be compared with Liter's & 600's. May be a top class Indian was able to do that kind of a time on a Liter doesn't mean others couldn't. The English kids on the Stock Triumph Daytona 675 were in the 1:43 league. When in discussion with Dave Jones, he was curious to know how the Liters would compare against the 600's at this track. When asked about, in his true opinion he replied ... if his fellow compatriots on the Liter's would have come here, they would be roughly a second to second and a half faster.

In the first ever Superbike race to be conducted here .. the 750cc Works Kawasaki of Chookit Chang was only able to manage 1:58's while others were far behind only in the 2:03's. When Inspected cloesly he had then Wayen Rainey Spec Dunlop Work's Tyres. The Group B - RD's were clocking in the 2:09's then. Latter the following year the Road Replica 250's were able to do close to 2:02's.

The best were the Shinya Nakano Days on the TZ125 (1:50's) here at MMSC when he was only second slower than The TZ250 (1:49's) of Shinya Harada ( Tetsuya Harada's Brother ), at that time the Group B - RD's were Clocking 2:07 & Raju on the Rx 100 Group c - 4 speed ... Drum brake was at 2:08. Further, Ammamiya ( Not the correct Pronounciation ) Blistered the Track on the TZ250 to 1:45's, when the Group - C RD's were doing 2:04. This track record stood for a very long time and was only broken in the first ever FIMSC Sidvin Championships.

Similarly with a world class rider & a Liter bike, I am positive he will break the Track record here ... but not by much. 3-years back when we returned to race the RD's at the racetrack we were beaten by the work's Bullets. Then we finally finished we were only in the 2:16's ( Ameen & Kumar did faster timings on the Inagural Group D - RD races ). May be with proper development & if the RD & Works 150cc 2-stroke class race's would have continued ... we don't know what the timing would be now. Further in the RX 135 class today guys are doing the same timing as what the factory riders did 3-years ago. So how do you compare that.

I have also seen in Moto GP's in the past, Tetsuya Harada's 250 Aprilia Timing would have qualified him on the second row of the Grid with the 500's. This gave birth to the RS500 & NSR 500 V ... Although fast in Qualifying and achieved Pole a few times ... they could never win a race against the v-4's.

Kindly Compare Apples to Apples and not Oranges.

Joe ... Keep the good work going.

Cheers - TZ750.

@TZ750:- That was some info and explanation. Thanks

All good info on the history there TZ750, just wanted to make a couple of corrections though. David jones and gang were not riding stock triumphs but 'supersport' triumphs, meaning full blown 600's. Though the supersports guys hold the track record now, the FIM asia level is actually higher quality by comparison, they're 1 sec off supersport pace but they run 'super stock' 600's which make much less power. They are also running on Dunlop tires which are considerably inferior (aleast 1 to 1.5secs) than the supersport guys who run the best pirelli race compounds. Also i believe Amemiya's track record on the TZ250 was a 1:48, though i dont know of any official records to validate it aside from word of mouth amongst us racers. Sadly even now there is no formal system of recording race results for future reference, but thats a topic for another day.

In all fairness i dont believe the idea was to compare 600's and the R15. The point is anything below a 2:00min lap at chennai has always been considered superbike territory. To understand this you'd really have to have followed the indian racing scene from the beginning as TZ750 has higlighted. The group C 2 strokes which were the fastest in their day weren't at this level, neither were the full blown RD350's raced in the old days. The chennai track is by no means go-kart level, the kari track at CBE could be called such. At the national level now the top 600's are lapping below 1:50's, in fact Rajini set a new national record at the last round with a 1:45.999. So its only the slower 600's that lap in the high 1:50's but it still isnt easy to do a 1:58 on a 600 so getting there on a r15 is damn impressive. I believe thats all that was being conveyed

They were not fully Blown ones. I was in their pits with them for all 3-days. Even during my studies in UK in the 96's ... I was involved with BSBK then. I do know something about Motorcycle Racing. Bill Smith explained to me, what is there exactly in their bikes and How much more in pounds it will cost them to get to the Top. I have written a bit about this on Bala Vijay's Moto-Rev pages. Not trying to put any one down. Just the Facts. The Brits were curious about why Dilip couldn't make it to the last 2- showings.

Alright, sorry Joel for the hijack, just need to nail home a few points for clarity

@tz750 - Well depends on what your definition of 'fully blown' is. As far as 600cc racing goes, there is no higher class than 'supersport' (other than moto2), they have the most freedom for modifications and i'm sure i dont need to tell u that. from the technical rule books for each, below is a snippet of just the mods allowed to the cylinder head and camshaft alone, i'm not even getting into other aspects.

--------------------------------
BSB Supersport
5.2.5.8.2 Cylinder Head
Cylinder head must be as homologated.
The following modifications are allowed.
1) Grinding of the cylinder head surface on the side of the gasket;
2) Modifications of the inlet and exhaust ports by taking off or adding
material (welding is forbidden);
3) Original homologated valves guides may be cut or modified, but only on
the intake or exhaust port side;
4) Polishing of the combustion chamber;
5) Original valve seats must be used, but modifications are allowed to the
shape;
6) Compression ratio is free, but the combustion chamber can be modified
only by taking material off.
It is forbidden to add any material to the cylinder head unless as described
above.
- The compression ratio is free.
- The combustion chamber may be modified.
- Rocker arms (if any) must remain as homologated (material and
dimensions).
- Valves may be altered or replaced and the material can be changed, but
maximum diameters and minimum weights must remain as homologated.
- The use of titanium valves is permitted only if the homologated machines
are equipped with such kind of valves.
- Valve springs can be changed.
- Valve spring retainers may be replaced or modified, but their weight must
be the same or higher than the original ones.

5.2.5.8.3 Camshaft
- The method of drive must remain as homologated.
- The duration is free but the lift must remain as homologated.
- The cam chain or cam belt tensioning device(s) are free.
- At the technical checks: for direct cam drive systems, the cam lobe lift is
measured; for non direct cam drive systems (i.e. with rocker arms), the
valve lift is measured.

FIM 600 Superstock
2.1.23 Cylinder Head.

No modifications are allowed.

No material may be added or removed from the cylinder head.

The cylinder head gasket may be changed.

The valves, valve seats, guides, springs and retainers must be as originally produced
by the manufacturer for the homologated machine.

Valve spring shims are not allowed.

2.1.24 Camshaft.

No modifications are allowed.

-------------------------------------

I dont think we need to argue on just how much difference in power that translates to

I also wont argue with you that as you said, they may not have been running at the limit of what supersport rules allow, i'm sure they could have done more. My point however is those bikes make more power and are faster than the FIM superstock 600's, theres no question about that. Also from a riders perspective, the triumph 675 is very well suited to chennai, due to its power delivery characteristics and size, it struggles against the inline 4's at other tracks but had a very clear advantage at chennai. These are just the facts.

PS: I know my bit about racing too

@Anirudh - Pls make a visit to the track and get your facts right before making a comment. You really need to follow Indian racing before even assuming a bit about laptimes. Entering under 2 mins on a SBK was considered a big feat untill we broke that myth with the Group B class.
And calling the MMSC track a go-kart track is pure stupidity. That 3.7kms track is F3 spec. Have you ridden there?

@TZ750 - Awesome insight from the older days. Thanks for sharing.
The 2-strokes have been formally racing at this track for nearly 2 decades and for a very long time since the sholavaram days. A lot of money and technology transfer has gone-in for all these years. Currently the fastest boy in the pack is clocking 2:03 with AV gas and in Group B trim with battlax rubber. Now if you say 2-strokes didnt get enough space for development is quite surprising. I'm told, its disheartening to a lot of oldtimers that the 4-strokes have gone faster.
4-stroke group B started just about 5-6 yrs ago when TVS entered the Fiero 4-speed. TVS was very serious about the class and slowly privateers joined in. The bikes at that time were way slower then their 2-stroke counterparts, but over time, the laptimes started getting closer and closer. Serious development went-in and each year the group B class started to shave 1-2 secs per lap. In 2008 the class got a refreshing treat when Pacer Yamaha came-in with full might and upped the game with some fancy laptimes. For the first time the dominance of the factory team was shaken and the laptimes were matching the 2-strokes from the previous year. The year 2009 was pure dominance by TVS in the Group B class with some serious engine performance and Pacer Yamaha stood no chance to even match them. So again the game was going in the right direction. Again, there was no private team to shake the dominance of TVS or Pacer even. Libra racing was a private effort but the pace was just not enough to match the duo. Something had to be done and we entered the scene. Come - Ten10 Racing. No history of winning or achieving anything. No rights to brag that we did this and that. All new team and an all new concept. My target was to just go ahead and up the game. We worked religiously towards it. It was my dream to just build a fast bike and thats about. Nothing was squared against any team or anybody. What was funny later was, once we got to this level a lot of wannabe tuners started to take credit that they helped us to get here and that they have extended a lot of support to us. Who cares.
Today the class has seen new standards and the standard myth that a 4-stroke could never match a 2-stroke has been broken. Probably, the 2-strokes could have gone faster given some time but if you see 4-strokes have barely gone-through about half a decade of development as opposed to decades of development of 2-strokes.
Again nobody here is saying that we are faster or matching a SBK, but just that we breached into the SBK territory. Again we talking about the group B R15 being the fastest Indian circuit bike and not comparing with a fully race prep'd TZ250/350/125. The bikes to be considered as pure indian racers for record sake were the RD/RX/shaolin/shogun/RTR and R15.
Talking about a SuperSport doing a little better than a Super Stock is like comparing group C and Group B. The 675 triple (while all others are 600cc) has more cc and only David Jones did that laptime. His team mates were on the inline-4 CBR and R6. Like Killer said, the Daytona triple has a significant advantage due to its ballistic mid-range torque and the bike was souped up to good levels.
Inagaki from moto-Rev India did 1:46 on a factory stock R6 with headlights and every stock bit with dunlop rubber during testing without suspension even. Rajini broke into 1:45 with a bike which is not even FIM spec, let alone calling it a full superstock.

Joel

Guys! just keep pouring info into this thread, fascinating to read. At present my favorite thread.

@Joel,

Just carry on with your wonderfull work and go ahead. Dont concentrate on what others are saying here on this thread ( regarding MMSC as a go kart track).
You yourself are well aware of as what you are doing and how much you have put your efforts for it...You shouldn't think of these small things which others are yelling...

Hats of to you for the wonderfull work..