1) MY bad. Its AU not EU (Aus not Europe)

Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAM Scheme) (Department of Transport and Main Roads)

2) I was referring to the 54 bhp non Europe version(speculated)

3) I clearly mentioned "Non ABS" there ^

4) Tare weight = Dry weight (assumed at 180)

5) Answer me this: When was the last time any manufacturer introduced a major upgrade in that class? Major as in a completely new bike from scratch R&D and not just upgrading existing models.

There are a couple of discrepancies in Honda's/Your calculations which I would like you to clarify.

1. I googled 'LAMS regulation in EU'. I got 'Light Aircraft Maintenance Schedule' in EU. Obviously either me or you have gone wrong somewhere. Kindly correct me (if applicable).
2. If you look at post #41 on this very thread (my post from earlier today), you would see that License category A2 allows for maximum of 35Kw(OR 47bhp). Whereas in your calculations you have considered 40 Kw which would clearly move them out of a virgin segment (they were supposedly targeting with these bikes).
3. As per this page : 2013 CB500F Specifications - Honda Powersports Honda CB500F weighs 420 lbs (OR 190.5 kg by simple conversion. ABS version weighs 424 lbs) whereas in your calculations, you have considered 180kg.
4. Why would Honda do all this weight gain to reduce the power to weight ratio to under 150 kw/ton when the regulation clearly allows for 0.2kw/kg OR 200kw/ton ?

My point from earlier was, neither KTM nor Honda nor Kawasaki nor the others who will make bikes for this new segment of buyers is going to make a lot of money by selling just A2 bikes. Real margins lie on the bigger bikes. A2 is an opportunity for each manufacturer to send home a clear message to the learners about what to expect from the bigger bikes if they happen to upgrade within their stable.

P.S.: Tare Weight is something very different from Kerb weight.

Wow!!! A real time report even before CBR 500 is launched!!!

I don't know if you're even aware that this is happening since the era of Yezdi/Jawa. Don't believe me, ask the experts around. It's not the problem with manufacturers, it's the problem with you & me who keep casting vote to the COVERment that frames the policies.

KTM bought better technology? Wow...a rebored 125cc cylinder? Inverted fork that keeps leaking? Alloy wheels that keep breaking on high run over potholes?
PS - Can you think of any reason as why KTM's 40+ odd percent was sold to BAL?

+1; after riding CBR 250R, I found it's quite impractical to keep riding on high speeds at all possible roads all day long; ofcourse some stretches like, Kishengarh, Hassan, NICE, Vizag, Jaisalmer, Attur, Davangere are exceptions.

Very practical & when you take the bike to any corner of India, you could get it serviced. The only thing a matter of concern will be road condition, weather, fuel station & food breaks.

+Million; we've seen this in the past as how a certain model was beaten to death & how it turned out to be later. Don't have prejudice on anything before we get to even know about it; speculation, dreams, wishes all these things can get crap at some point when entire community begins to think.

Let me mark something in bold, that is the point...

The bike weighs so much because it also has to cater to the LAMS regulations in europe. I.e., meet the power to weight ratio.

The NON ABS CBF is at 148kw/tonne

It's the: ddddddddddddddddddddddddddengine power (kW)
ddddddddddddddddddddddd_________________________________ x1000
ddddddddddddddddddddddddtare weight + (90kg for rider and fuel)


so it's dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddDD40
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddDD_______ x1000
ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddDD180+90

= approximately 148kw/tonne

Ok my last counter arguement!

Would you rather pay some 8+L for a 600RR with 100+ HP on tap most of which you'd (may) not be able to use?

OR

Would rather pay some 4-5L for a 500R with 50 odd HP which you can most certainly use to the fullest?


I know you are now base lining your expectations against the very potent Duke 390, but then you loose some, you win some!

Again, I'm not saying that these bikes are exciting. All I'm saying is that its not as bad as you are making it out to be.

Our only point is that both of us (me and forty6) didn't find it exciting enough. If I want something boring, I will buy a car! Why spend so much on a bike then?

The A2 segment was the easiest for the manufacturers to master. There was no min/max displacement limitation. The only limitations were highest bhp and lowest weight. All they had to do was play to their strengths. Had the bikes been 20odd kg lighter, all of us would have had no option but to keep our mouths shut. None of us would have cried foul / ranted about the bikes being too boring.

Anyways, Test ride reports are yet to come in so I would like to reserve any more ranting for later.

Going by the current trend of Honda producing the CBR250R from Asia (Thailand - 1st largest plant / India - 2nd largest plant) and exporting it to the world....Producing in Asian countries is working out as the production cost is very cheap.....In all probabilities, HMSI should produce & export it to US while Eurpoe should get it from Thailand...

This is only my Guess...But not Speculation...

by the dollops of below par specs it does look it is made for India too. But if it is not, it is even worse.

Again!! ..its not like these bikes are made to order for India! We still have no idea if they are coming here!

Well i know the suspension is not good, because it is cheap. It is not built to a cost, it is dreamt at a cost. It does not have a lower spec engine in a higher spec chasis, but everything in lower case. There are no upside down forks or radial brakes. But that is not what am ranting against here. The thing is the Indian Biker is the most neglected of the lot. We don't have good options and when the companies do think of us, it is mostly in terms of a marginal increment than something to justify our waiting. the thing is there are enough options in the cheaper segments but none so in the expensive ones. Not only that the emphasis is not on quality. Or technological innovation so to speak. Which is my problem with bullet too. 50 years and all they have is a projector headlamp. Yes they can get away with that because its TG is happy with it being backward and some such, but here it is not so. And coming back to these neutered babies, if KTM can bring better technology at decent prices why should honda revert to stone age stuff to make 50 odd bhp accessible? I quote bhp because i don't think these are performance bikes. And i don't think higher bhp or higher cc means higher performance. Cagiva mito is one of the examples. I would say again then that KTM is a good leap. value for money, exciting, yet not living in the past.
Anyways i think am debating up the wrong tree, because you admit that these bikes are not meant to be exciting. Which to me is rather sad. Sadder than the bikes themselves.

Well I said its *almost* identical. Read the following, you will know how.

Bike..................Bore(mm)........Stroke(mm).. ..Bore:Stroke Ratio
ZMR..................65.5mm..........66.2mm....... ..0.99
CBR500R............67.0mm..........66.8mm......... 1.00
CBR600RR...........67.0mm..........42.5mm......... 1.58
CBR150R............63.5mm..........47.2mm......... .1.35
CBR250R............76.0mm..........55.0mm......... .1.38
Duke 200...........72.0mm..........49.0mm..........1.47
Duke 390...........89.0mm..........60.0mm..........1.48

The number to watch is the Bore:Stroke Ratio.

^
Bore square x Stroke x (pie by 4) x no.cylinders (in inches)

600 has 4 of those with short strokes make'n high rev'n power Vs the twin, squared 500r engine for easy and wide range of torque accessibility.

Noob Question: Can someone explain the bore piston thingy to me? In the previous page I read about it being identical to the ZMA/R.
And in the below pic, they mention about the CBR600RR.

Word! exactly what i have been trying to convey. They are not pulling a Ferrari or a Ducati move here. They are not looking for an "Exclusive customer" market anymore. The 600RR market has plummeted in the last 3 years. They are now bringing performance to the masses and being practical at the same time. On the bright side, there is a 600RR for the real enthusiasts but it wont make it to the Indian market anytime soon(or ever) and even if it does it will be hovering around the 8-10 lakh mark which will again be criticized by the so called "Performance enthusiasts" as "Overpriced" and "Totally not worth it".

I think you understood the logic wrong, it was an explanation for what came before what. The CB500 twins are a much evolved version of the 70's 500 which btw was a full 499cc.

Its not about mediocrity, I think Honda is trying to do something different here by merging two different segments. All they are trying to do is bring better performance with reach of more people. And I think its a welcome move, considering that the RR's that everyone here is still craving for would still be too expensive, too powerful in the Indian context.

I agree these bikes are not "exciting", but then they weren't meant to be that!!