A bit off-topic but I feel it is appropriate:

I can categorically state that the best motorcycle EVER made in the history of the universe is the 2005 Ninja ZX-10R.

I could have bought one...well within my budget and I did put one on Lay-by at the dealership before backing out and buying a 2005 Red LE Hayabusa.

Why?

A day after blocking the black '05 10R I had a ride on a friend's '05 10R and I can touch my heart and say that I have NEVER known FEAR until the moment I started riding that bike. This was fully stock straight from the showroom and it was pointing skyward everytime I went NEAR the throttle. Go near...SKY...Go near...SKY!!! I have never experienced such immediate throttle response and such BRUTAL power delivery before or since. I made a small wee in my trousers going around the block and brought it back...my knees shaking like leaves in the wind.

The same day I went back to the dealer, cancelled my booking after explaining the situation and bought the Hayabusa. The Hayabusa felt like a moped after the 10R.

They don't make bikes like that anymore...and when they do, it is guaranteed to be a Kawasaki.

I am sure the '05 10R isn't quicker than the blade nor does it handle better but there was something primeval about that bike that made it the one to have. It scared me and I wanted to have nothing to do with it but sometimes the ease with which one can ride a modern 1000cc bike takes away from the reality of the situation. A liter bike is a weapon in the wrong hands and it WILL kill without warning. 200 Kph on the Fireblade felt like 100Kph on the R1 and I am not sure that is healthy. When my friend went past me at 170 Kph I didn't hear him coming and I jumped when this silhouette blasted past. I think that is risky...the exhausts need to be louder.

If you compare the 2011 GSXR1000 and the Fireblade...I am quite certain I'll be putting my money on the Gixxer but if Kawasaki ever launches the 10R in India - You'll have to fight me to be first in line to book one.

.........................

This thread is turning into an amazing pool of knowledge. Thanks for the discussion guys.

Are you more prepared for the ZX-10R now, than you were in 2005?
Or has the character of the bike undergone so drastic a change (downwards i.e. it is less scary now) that you want to pick it now?

I have few questions:

1. Suppose if the CBR1000RR and ZX10R both are making identical 175-180ps at the rear wheel, but like ROHAN said, CBR does it without the "snatch" effect on the throttle,and ZX10R does it with all the "brutality" (without the techno gizmo's which are on the offer on CBR), then tachnically or theoratically or practically which will "feel" faster ?

2. What exactly is RAM AIR effect, that lets almost 10-15 PS loose once it gets the correct dose of air? Is it kinda supercharger? Why HONDA is staying away from it ?

3. Is R1 2008 still the bike that cracked the 1:1 ratio or that crown is shared by Beemer, Aprillia or Kwacker now ?

4. By introduction of TC in ZX10R, kawasaki became the first japanese manufacture to give it in a litre bike.
Will the TC eliminate any jerking throttle moments, wheel stepping out ?
Is TC alone is good or should be backed with the C-ABS?

5. Are SHOWA's here are the dampers or the horizontal OHLIN ?

1. Kawasaki will "feel" faster to the one riding it.
2. Ram-air intake is any intake design which uses the dynamic air pressure created by vehicle motion to increase the static air pressure inside of the intake manifold on an engine, thus allowing a greater massflow through the engine and hence increasing engine power-- Wikipedia. Honda doesnt stay away from it. No one stays away from it...all 600 and 1000cc bikes have RAM Air intake now.
3. dont know
4. Tration control and C-ABS are two different things. Traction control need not be backed up with C-ABS nor vice versa. To me when it comes to gizmos...the more the merrier. Older bikes may not be track bikes and could yet be raced upon but the older bikes couldnt manage to muster a speed of 160 kmph in all 6 gears while the newer ones will hit that figure in the first gear alone. I would also like to think that those who managed to race on not-so-track-bikes were the ones with skill and a lot of broken bones. Without skills if I still wanna be indulging in track riding then I want them gizmos
5. Horizontal Oehlins is the steering damper. Showa = forks.

TenHut - Gizmos will not save you on track if you are going to be a tool with the throttle.

I don't think there has been a direct comparison between the CBR and the ZX010R yet. If there is such a comparo - I would appreciate if you guys can forward me the link. MCN or whatever...

Cmon !!!! its a lot more complicated than that. Even when pros highside or lowside it aint because they are being tools on the throttle. Just like C-ABS and TC, every other gizmo out there is an insurance policy incase you end up making a mistake in the heat of the moment. If you intend to be a tool on the throttle then its easier to be one on the street on a striaght line than on the track, dont you think ?

Its much the same when ppl say..."just take it easy with the throttle...the bike wont speed up if you dont throttle. If you are mature and responsible you are going to be fine" Right ?
Wrong!
Maturity and responsibility dont ride a superbike/supersport. Skill and experience does. And it doesnt come in a day nor in an year. Its a life long pursuit. So one might be riding at the track for 10 years and yet there will come a time when TC will save his/her ass. Thats why they make them gizmos..not as a substitute to rider skill...but to make certain mistakes less punishing.

Are you talking of a comparo between the CBR and the new 2011 10R ? I dont think they will have those out yet. There are plenty though which compare the 2010 CBR to 2010 10R

Thank you ROHAN for the answers
All 600 and litre bikes having RAM AIR was news to me.

One more thing, the showa's in the pic are having hard and soft setting, then whats the purpoes of those "ten" "com" screws ? Are they for rebound damping ?

Pray tell me why else would one high/low-side?

Not really. Most people who hit the track go progressively quicker and quicker carrying more speed in and out of corners. At one point you will overcook it on the exit and the rear will slide. A good rider will feel this point and stay a few clicks short of this point - this is riding at 80% of capacity. Guys like us on the other hand have no way of recognizing the point where the tires are about to give up because we don't do this everyday and we don't dare get past the limit because it costs too much to repair if you make a mess.

Maturity and Responsibility will keep you alive. Skill and Experience will make you look good but it is that flash image of your family, friends and life that pops into your brain every now and then that comes with maturity and responsibility.

Your skill and experience will NEVER be as good as your mind tells you they are - MotoGP riders wouldn't crash as often if this were true.

C-ABS and TC won't let you make a mistake as long as they are working fine. They don't show you the limits of the track, tires and chassis. They don't show you the limits of your own skill and ability. They blur the lines and when for any reason they stop working or you are thrown onto a bike that is setup differently or has different electronics or no electronics at all - there is a very good chance you'll be all at sea.

Do 10 laps on the CBR with all gizmos working...
Do 1 lap soon after with all gizmos disabled and attempting to match the laptime.

There is a frighteningly high probability you will go home in a bag. So have these gizmos made you a better rider?

Not in the least...

I think this topic has to be renamed to fireblade vs zx10 vs r1 vs gixer

Why else ? Braking.
Most of the low sides have nothing to do with throttle. Braking results in a lot of low sides.
If you are mature and responsible would they let you fly F16 the first time you are ever flying anything ? No ! Why ? Because maturity and responsibility dont and cant help you in flying a supersonic jet scrambler nor help you ride a superbike/supersport. Skill and experience alone does. Big bike owners are predominantly in their 30s all over the world. Insurance companies justify this by saying that a youngster lusts for a bike but doesnt have the money and then when he has the money he wants to live his youth again. One would think ppl in their 30s would be more mature and responsible too for they would/could/should have a family by then ?
But the no of ppl crashing two wheels isnt any less, is it ?
These are a different breed. MotoGP riders dont really crash only cause they over estimate themselves or because they end up thinking that they are now far more better than what they actually are. Infact at those speeds and at those levels of competition the only way they can survive is by knowing their abilities and capabilities like the back of their hand. They exploit their strengths and try to work on their weaknesses year after year. Over estimating your skills is not really a concern at those levels for if you were in the habit of over estimating yourself you wouldnt be there in the first place. They crash for they are riding at a place where millions of dollars are at stake and if they arent pushing themselves or pushing their bikes they are gonna be out of their job the next day.
That part in bold is the reason why we are still struggling to reach an agreement. C-ABS and TC WILL ALLOW YOU TO MAKE A MISTAKE.
I am surprised to see this coming from you because this is exactly what the gizmos do. They show you the limits of track(surface), tires and chasis. Lets take C-ABS for example. Does it show you the limits of your tyre traction under different surfaces ? Ofcourse it does...it does so by triggering the braking distribution aka through pulsating vibrations through your body. Now you know you over did the braking. Without C-ABS here you would have known the limits and would have known that you overdid your braking too...only you would be thinking of it all lying in a hospital for you would have crashed due to locking your front. With C-ABS..you locked your front..and the bike told you "wow...if it wasnt for my super intelligent CPU you would be kissing tarmac right now...careful next time..back off a little"
Literally this is how you feel everytime you overcook your braking. Have you tried(more importantly, triggered) the C-ABS yourself ?
Lets take Traction control as an example. Do you think TC develops/encourages the rider to make more mistakes ? It exists to only cut the throttle off AFTER the rider has done the mistake of being a little too early on the gas a little too much. So when in lean if you are too early on the gas the bikes gonna let you know that you have screwed up your corner for your back tire is gonna start squirming and in an instant you would know that the CPU has cut the throttle. Next time, since now you know where the boundary is, you would be that much more careful in the same corner. Basically you are back at the same corner attacking it, not after resting at the hospital for weeks together, but back the very next lap. Why ? Because you had gizmos which communicated to you whenever you did a mistake.
I have ridden the BMW at hockenheim and have triggered the TC. If it werent for TC I would have been flying in the air. In an instant...I knew what my limit was in that corner. Did it make me a safer/better rider the next lap ? I shall let you answer that for me.

I must ask...have you ridden a bike with C-ABS and TC on a track and have you triggered both of them unknowingly on the track having a 'balls in the mouth' moment ? If yes then you wouldnt be questioning the use of such technology which actually allows you to come back the next lap armed with an even better understanding of the limits of your bike. If it werent for the technology you would be cursing your broken bones...if you werent returning home in a bag, as you candidly expressed yourself.

I think you have misunderstood the working or the function of technology and how or what role it plays in making sure that the rider learns his limits..inspite of making mistakes..only that his mistakes arent punished with broken bones...a full stop in his carrer..or with his life altogether.

I am always ATGATT: helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves, boots. I have low sided once and high sided once. Both crashes had nothing to do with throttling. Both crashes interestingly occurred at the same speed, approximately 30 mph or 48 kph. I low sided off the Ninja 250 because I failed to look ahead into a sharp left curve. Bike suffered minor damage, I was just bruised.

I high sided off my CBR600RR because 2 inches (5 cms) of my rear tire caught gravel (according to the police report). I was leaned all the way over (interestingly on a similar curve as the low side) in 1st gear at max RPM. End result was a completely shattered right arm that has been surgically reconstructed. CBR was totaled (sub-frame bent). This time I was looking ahead on the left-curve but apparently the road had some "hidden gravel" (according to police report again, don't know WTF "hidden gravel" means).

Anyway from personal experience I completely agree with TenHut, throttling need not be the cause of a low-side or high-side. It can happen anytime.

I hope you can access this video outside of USA:

CHP - Motorcycle Safety - Informational Video

The point of the video is that you can be the most mature and responsible person on the road but that doesn't mean everyone else on the road is mature and responsible. You also have no control over the elements, inanimate objects etc. Bottomline: crashes can happen ANYTIME, it is a false sense of security to think that maturity and responsibility will keep you alive.

Personally, everytime I go out on a bike, I don't know if I am going to make it back home. Inspite of this attitude, I crashed. That is just the nature of motorcycling.

Again, hope you can access this site from outside USA:

A Dozen Deadly Motorcycle Safety Myths - Motorcycle Cruiser Magazine

Look under Myth 12. ABS **does** help in eliminating much of crashing BUT not all of crashing.

Ride safe, later.

Bartman

On an aside, why does the ZX10R front-end now look very similar to the Aprilia RSV's front-end?

Aprilia RSV4 Factory launch test news



The OHLINs are the steering dampeners, SHOWAs are the forks.
For reference, look up the ZX10R specs. on Kawi's website.

On a total aside, I now have a 09 ZX6R.

Ride safe, later.

Bartman

What color did you get? I used to have a red 08 CBR600RR

The only issue I had with it was servicing the bike meant removing the fairings EVEN FOR AN OIL CHANGE. Oh well, thats how bikes are made nowadays . Besides that, the bike is actually pretty serviceable without taking it to a dealer.

Overall I was extremely happy with it. The only reason I moved back to Kawi was...well...always wanted to own a ZX6R.

Do you have any experience riding a superbike? If not, be extremely careful. In the words of a good friend, "these bikes kill you, even the cute little 600s".

Ride safe, later.

Bartman

@Tenhut - yes braking causes low-sides with the front washing out and (if you remember laguna seca from a few years back - Jorge's crash) highsides if you overcook the brakes into the corner.

C-ABS monitors a number of different factors and gives you more traction by preventing one wheel from having a zero angular velocity while the other has a measurable angular velocity. These systems are never calibrated for zero and the moment there is a difference in angular speeds that exceeds a certain threshold, C-ABS will kick in. This is usually well under the actual limit of braking you can achieve. So it doesn't let you make a mistake here because if you didn't have C-ABS you would have been able to brake just a little bit deeper. I am talking about bikes you pick off the showroom.

Traction Control - there are so many flavors ranging from unobtrusive to absolutely in-your face. Some keep you from making mistakes and the others will kick in when you have gone that little bit too far.

I never disagreed with you that these gizmos will give you an additional layer of security on the road/track. Where I disagree with you is when you make statements indicating that maturity and responsibility are less important than skill and experience. This is like saying a high performance tactical weapon in the hands of a young ace shooter is the best solution to save the world...who does the young-gun usually report to? Yes - the guy with the maturity and responsibility. It works like this in your office, in the army, in schools, in IIT and out on the road as well.

I also disagree with on your definition of "Mistake". A mistake is not an occasional sideways moment, wheelie or having the front washing out at the apex of the corner - these happen all the time when you are pushing the bike. A "mistake" is what puts you in the gravel and your bike on the back of a pickup truck. C-ABS and TC are there to stop you from making those mistakes.

As a purist I don't believe there is any pleasure in being on the track without the risk of making a mistake. It is why you concentrate so hard on to get every corner absolutely right, to accelerate earlier and brake later in the pursuit of that "God" lap.

Electronics will let you go home but I'd rather stay at home and do the hard work on my PS3 in that case because the risk is just not that apparent anymore. If you can come through C12 on MMSC with throttle WOT then it is not your riding doing the talking but the machine underneath you.

TenHut - you have a trackday in a couple of weeks IIRC. I'd be very interested to hear your experiences and corner speeds. Perhaps you should invest in a data logger (I think Veypor is one such brand. Or something which is GPS assisted) to get the correct corner speeds. We can then compare the corner entry and exit speeds on a TC bike viz. a non TC bike. Should be more interesting than just lap-times which depend on straightway performance as well.

EDIT - Please post your corner entry-exit speeds on C3, C12, C5 and the corner that preceeds the back straight (I think it is C7 or C8).