Engine Oils

[Aman Preet]

Re: Engine Oils

Anywhere here using HDEO on the pulsar 220?
I just want to have a feel of using HDEO once,also any suggestions to use with the 220?

EDIT:I understand the risks but want to try it once.

[B7ACKTHORN]

Re: Engine Oils

Anywhere here using HDEO on the pulsar 220?
I just want to have a feel of using HDEO once,also any suggestions to use with the 220?

EDIT:I understand the risks but want to try it once.

Yesteryear, post exactly for my ex-220

http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-699-print.html

I've used Mobil Delvac, 15w40 on my 220, for more than 2k KMS, and I can say the oil is pretty much good. Though after using 5100 (excellent oil for the 220) and 300V extensively, the latter really isn't really a necessity for the 220. The engine feels harsher, on the 300V after a few 100 KMS, but performance wasn't affected in anyway. Delvac I really didn't feel any difference, but I reckon -- or perhaps a placebo, the gearbox was comparatively smoother and I felt a perceptive change in engine note which went a little bassier, anways that's just my personal observation. And I haven't had a chance to analyze the oil post drain, since the bike was sold with the Delvac.

Cheers!
VJ

[Aman Preet]

Re: Engine Oils

Thanks i will give it a try,though sourcing it is a different case altogether. :P

Yesteryear, post exactly for my ex-220

http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-699-print.html

I've used Mobil Delvac, 15w40 on my 220, for more than 2k KMS, and I can say the oil is pretty much good. Though after using 5100 (excellent oil for the 220) and 300V extensively, the latter really isn't really a necessity for the 220. The engine feels harsher, on the 300V after a few 100 KMS, but performance wasn't affected in anyway. Delvac I really didn't feel any difference, but I reckon -- or perhaps a placebo, the gearbox was comparatively smoother and I felt a perceptive change in engine note which went a little bassier, anways that's just my personal observation. And I haven't had a chance to analyze the oil post drain, since the bike was sold with the Delvac.

Cheers!
VJ

----consecutive posts auto-merged-----

Thanks i will give it a try,though sourcing it is a different case altogether. :P

Yesteryear, post exactly for my ex-220

http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/universal-threads/4789-engine-oils-699-print.html

I've used Mobil Delvac, 15w40 on my 220, for more than 2k KMS, and I can say the oil is pretty much good. Though after using 5100 (excellent oil for the 220) and 300V extensively, the latter really isn't really a necessity for the 220. The engine feels harsher, on the 300V after a few 100 KMS, but performance wasn't affected in anyway. Delvac I really didn't feel any difference, but I reckon -- or perhaps a placebo, the gearbox was comparatively smoother and I felt a perceptive change in engine note which went a little bassier, anways that's just my personal observation. And I haven't had a chance to analyze the oil post drain, since the bike was sold with the Delvac.

Cheers!
VJ

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

Dear @Honda_abhi, I have been repeatedly telling you to browse through the thread and search for HDEOs advantages and disadvantages. It is documented quite well. For example, see my post 5502 here http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/help-me/...-oils-551.html Please go through the links thoroughly.
I am sure the links to HDEO usage in motorcycles would be updated with more and more information now, after 3 years of posting the earlier links.

Nobody wants to discourage a discussion, but it should be unbiased and informative. A simple 'HDEO in Motorcycle' on google gives us all the relevant information. But the effort and responsibility of typing that in the browser and reading the past three years of HDEO related discussion on xbhp has to be performed by the person who wants to gain information. Members may not be interested in spoon feeding to continue a discussion.

The responsibility to find more links and information from the xbhp thread itself lies with you now.



HDEOs of 15w40 can be used in P180 or 220. There are many people using xxw40 grade4T oils in these motorcycles. My fazer mentions 20w50 grade in Service Manual and 20w40 and 20e50 grade in owners manual. I am using w40 grade oils from the starting. No problems.

The links and information from the xbhp thread are just forum discussions or user experiences. They are not scientifically laid down facts to prove that HDEOs are better.

I had documented one point which clearly states that AX7 is better than Rimula.

Just for your reference "

Also the viscosity index of Shell rimula R4x is 139, while the viscosity index of Shell advance AX7 is 172. These are not numbers coming from my imagination. This is quoted on the shell website in the msds & pds sheets of respective oils

AND This is a world established fact that lower the viscosity index of engine oil, lesser the protection at high temperatures. So it seems that contrary to belief HDEOs actually provide less protection at higher temperatures than MCEOs.

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets."

Anyways I will keep on researching the net for more info. If I find HDEOs better I would definitely promote them. Till date I have found nothing but user experiences in favour of HDEOs. No scientific facts. Moreover I am finding facts which are against use of HDEOs

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

The links and information from the xbhp thread are just forum discussions or user experiences. They are not scientifically laid down facts to prove that HDEOs are better.

I had documented one point which clearly states that AX7 is better than Rimula.

Just for your reference "

Also the viscosity index of Shell rimula R4x is 139, while the viscosity index of Shell advance AX7 is 172. These are not numbers coming from my imagination. This is quoted on the shell website in the msds & pds sheets of respective oils

AND This is a world established fact that lower the viscosity index of engine oil, lesser the protection at high temperatures. So it seems that contrary to belief HDEOs actually provide less protection at higher temperatures than MCEOs.

Atleast AX7 is better than shell rimula as per shell's own msds and pds sheets."

Anyways I will keep on researching the net for more info. If I find HDEOs better I would definitely promote them. Till date I have found nothing but user experiences in favour of HDEOs. No scientific facts. Moreover I am finding facts which are against use of HDEOs

Good that you started reading and sharing its good for everyone. I was about to discuss the VI thing you shared, but didn't. I think it is the right time to discuss that with you now.

If you compare a 15w40 oil with a 10w-40 oil, there are very good chance that 10w-40 would have higher viscosity Index. But, does that mean a 10w-40 oil would protect better than 15w-40? May be yes, may be not! It depends on many other things.

VI is not the flag bearer for lubricant quality or superiority. It denotes how much the lubricant can prevent thinning at higher temperatures, the more you have VI, the more range you have for oil functionality in varied ambient temperature. It also means the more you have VI polymers, which may mean the earlier you have to replace lubricant. If you have got a 10w40 oil and a 20w40 oil.. The 10w40 may stop functioning as a w40 oil after 5,000 kms in a motorcycle engine and a 20w-40 oil may do the same after 8,000 kms. This means that the 10w40 oil may be less protective after 5K kms. These are all hypothetical figures.. but if you read blackstone oil analysis of used oils in comparison to the fresh oil of the same brand and viscosity, you would find that a 10w40 behaves like a 10w30 after 5k miles on an xyz engine. This is precisely what I am talking about. But, a 3K interval for our motorcycles is quite less to show that effect. But still.

Image shows VI of same brand oil, but different viscosity.

Where will I use VI information to the max. - If a truck transports equipment from a base in Jaisalmer to a base in Kargil, I would be interested to know what is the VI of the oil that it has. It has to tavel from a hot climate to a cold climate - There I wont use a 20w50 oil in it. I would go for an oil that has atleast 150 VI so that it can go up and down the terrain at-least three four times a month. Indian terrain calls for 15w40 oils at max. It suits all our requirements. Though a truck born to run only in Jaisalmer, a 20w50 fits much much better.

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

If you compare a 15w40 oil with a 10w-40 oil, there are very good chance that 10w-40 would have higher viscosity Index. But, does that mean a 10w-40 oil would protect better than 15w-40? May be yes, may be not! It depends on many other things.

It also means the more you have VI polymers, which may mean the earlier you have to replace lubricant. If you have got a 10w40 oil and a 20w40 oil.. The 10w40 may stop functioning as a w40 oil after 5,000 kms in a motorcycle engine and a 20w-40 oil may do the same after 8,000 kms. This means that the 10w40 oil may be less protective after 5K kms.

Can you post links to support this information you have posted?? Are they just speculations?

Similarly "HDEOs are beneficial in motorcycles" this statement is only supported by user experiences and forum discussions. I am saying again "lets research the internet for actual documented scicentific data about HDEOs.

I am not against HDEOs. I would promote them if I find data in support of HDEOs.

As I said " I thought i had a friend who will help in researching the internet with me on HDEOs. @ muztariq - will U help??

[Aman Preet]

Re: Engine Oils

Though i agree that scientific facts are important etc but then at the end of the day if the consumers are happy and think its beneficial(after riding for thousands of kilometers) isnt that what matters at the end of the day?
To each his own.No one is forcing anyone to buy HDEO

[Honda_abhi]

Re: Engine Oils

Though i agree that scientific facts are important etc but then at the end of the day if the consumers are happy and think its beneficial(after riding for thousands of kilometers) isnt that what matters at the end of the day?
To each his own.No one is forcing anyone to buy HDEO

Just "thinking" that it is beneficial and being happy does not necessarily mean that HDEOs are actually beneficial for motorcycle engines in the long run.

Just ponder on this question - There are no separate engine oils for three wheelers. But there are separate oils for motorcycles, petrol car engines and diesel engines.

Why would oil manufacturing companies go through the effort of manufacturing and marketing these oils separately if same oil can be used in both motorcycles and diesel engines?

There has to be something different in the composition which makes the HDEO beneficial for diesel engines and MCEO beneficial for motorcycle engines. I am just appealing that we find out what it is that is different.

At least I intend to find out. Would u like to help me?

[B7ACKTHORN]

Re: Engine Oils

@muztariq, I am so glad people like you have found the right place to share your wits, indepth and meaningful posts as always.
And perhaps a few questions from my side Though it is quite evident of the obvious benefits of HDEO, I am considering them to use them in a car engine. Apart from the "red herring" I am curious to know how a gasoline car engine will be able handle the additional viscosity i.e. thickness.

Now coming to the detergents, I was pondering about this for a long time, we all know one of detergent's main job is clean and neutralize acids, but since Diesel engines being more sooty by nature, I guess this would suit them well (correct me if I'm wrong) But detergents being, well detergents, won't they start working over time and try and clean the cylinder walls on a gasoline engine don't you think this can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency or is this is negated by the other additives like ZDDP.

I understand CJ 4 SJ L and M approved are both good for diesel and gasoline, but is there something we're missing between the lines. Would love to get some insight.
@psr sir, what are the pros/cons of removing a catcon from a car, considering, using HDEO on a car engine. Since HDEO byproducts poison modern catcon specfic cars/bikes. Your thoughts on all of the above would be helpful.

Cheers!
VJ

[muztariq]

Re: Engine Oils

Can you post links to support this information you have posted?? Are they just speculations?

Source: Discussed many times on Xbhp, but attaching quick source for degradation of VII polymers under stress.
Disadvantages
Unfortunately, viscosity index improvers do have some drawbacks. The primary disadvantage is they are susceptible to mechanical shearing. When referring to the slinky analogy, it is easy to imagine a stretched-out slinky cut in half by mechanical processes to produce two shorter slinkys.

As the additive is repeatedly sheared, it loses its ability to act as a more viscous fluid at higher temperatures. Higher molecular weight polymers make better thickeners but tend to have less resistance to mechanical shear. Lower molecular weight polymers are more shear-resistant, but do not improve viscosity as effectively at higher temperatures and, therefore, must be used in larger quantities.
A Simple Explanation of Viscosity Index Improvers

Just "thinking" that it is beneficial and being happy does not necessarily mean that HDEOs are actually beneficial for motorcycle engines in the long run.

Just ponder on this question - There are no separate engine oils for three wheelers. But there are separate oils for motorcycles, petrol car engines and diesel engines.

Why would oil manufacturing companies go through the effort of manufacturing and marketing these oils separately if same oil can be used in both motorcycles and diesel engines?

There has to be something different in the composition which makes the HDEO beneficial for diesel engines and MCEO beneficial for motorcycle engines. I am just appealing that we find out what it is that is different.

At least I intend to find out. Would u like to help me?

Nobody is just thinking.. we have proof that HDEOs work well. You have recommendations from actual users and from oil experts from various international forums.

Coming to your second point - Why does oil companies manufacture Car oils, Diesel oils and Motorcycle oils separate?
Because they are oil companies, they have to sell their product! If I go to the barber today, he can give me 100s of style to my hair, whereas I just went for cutting the hair. The same is the case with every consumer good on the market. The same company, the same product is being categorized differently so that it sell. Yes, there are some changes to API spec, but how hard it is to label an oil that meets API SM and API CH4 as both petrol and diesel engine oil? 90% of Diesel cars and 99% of Petrol cars need only API CH4 and API SM oil respectively. The remaining are Skodas and VWs etc that have their own spec to be followed. If a truck owner goes to the shop and sees a label where there is a small motorcycle, a small car and a small truck image being shown on the oil he may take it, but when beside that oil, there is an 18 wheeler glaring prominently from the other engine oil label, he wont buy the first oil for sure! Imagine you going to a shop and there is a Fast racing car depicted on the 1L can and there is also a small sportzbike on it, you may buy that oil for your motorbike. But, you wont buy it when beside that bottle a gorgeous sportsbike from a race is being depicted exclusively on the label. That is marketing. No matter what oil it has. Until it convinces you that it is also used for the sports bike, you have low probability of taking it home. Surprisingly, only a few read whats written on the back of the label - which is the most important information you should go through before finalizing any oil.
10-15 years back, I was doing the same thing what most of us do now - Buy an oil which has 4T written on the label. Use it for 6 months in the splendor and but another one next time. No matter what viscosity, no matter how much usage I have in six months.. it was simple - Service bike every six months, use fresh oil with 4T written on it. The bike still ran for wonderful 1 lakh kms until I sold it.

@muztariq, I am so glad people like you have found the right place to share your wits, indepth and meaningful posts as always.
And perhaps a few questions from my side Though it is quite evident of the obvious benefits of HDEO, I am considering them to use them in a car engine. Apart from the "red herring" I am curious to know how a gasoline car engine will be able handle the additional viscosity i.e. thickness.

Now coming to the detergents, I was pondering about this for a long time, we all know one of detergent's main job is clean and neutralize acids, but since Diesel engines being more sooty by nature, I guess this would suit them well (correct me if I'm wrong) But detergents being, well detergents, won't they start working over time and try and clean the cylinder walls on a gasoline engine don't you think this can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency or is this is negated by the other additives like ZDDP.

I understand CJ 4 SJ L and M approved are both good for diesel and gasoline, but is there something we're missing between the lines. Would love to get some insight.
@psr sir, what are the pros/cons of removing a catcon from a car, considering, using HDEO on a car engine. Since HDEO byproducts poison modern catcon specfic cars/bikes. Your thoughts on all of the above would be helpful.

Cheers!
VJ

First of all, a very good question. What about the elastomers of a petrol car's engine when we use diesel oil in it.

15-20 years ago, yes, diesel oils cannot make it to petrol cars engine. Even synthetic oils cannot make it in engines that were not 'made' for synthetics. The elastomers used would swell and become brittle. But not now. The engine manufacturer knows that you will one day or the other put in a synthetic or other detergent rich oil in it. Material science has evolved and we have compatible elastomers now, which can take care of this issue easily.

But what if engine oil manufacturer use very high amount of detergents in the oil, to make them even longer lasting? - No, they couldn't. The oil that meets modern API CI and other specifications has to meet Elastomer Compatibility Testing. Mind it, we still have engine flush etc easily available on the market that uses very high detergents to quickly clean the engine, while idling for a short duration of time, ready to be drained! These additives do not pass any API Elastomer compatibility test. Any Tom-Dick-Harry can mix three four components in kerosene/diesel and present it in a eye-catchy packaging at the SVC for you to buy it. No wonder we have leaks, engine failures and other reports after such treatments, that is why I specifically warn people not to use 'engine flush' etc. Some fuel additives are still acceptable(they are used in very low amount).

Unable to attach(heavy file) a comparison I made from two different documents for a quick comparison between diesel and gasoline engine oil tests. I am not sure, whether I have uploaded it here, but I have done it on some other forum for sure. If you have time, you can compare what tests are being followed for gasoline oils and diesel oils. From the look at it, diesel oils go through stringent testing and also does not have to meet the not more than 0.1% Phosphorus limit, the compound which we know is actually beneficial to the engine. But, not for the envt. To search the file, type "muztariq and API SJSL vs API CI4" in the browser.

Coming to the other part regarding catcons. Don't remove the catcon. You will kill somebody . You actually dont need to. Till the time, engine oil meets 1.2% Ash content, whether the oil is diesel or petrol, it is the same for the catcon. Diesel oils have actually limit of 1.4% usually. Not a big difference, until your car starts consuming a liter of oil every 1000 kms.

Petrol engines usually do not burn much oil. It would take ages for a diesel oil used in a petrol car to poison the catcon. On the other hand, diesel engine do burn relatively more amount of engine oil. Which means that it is more difficult for them to meet the pollutant spec. layed down by the govt. Now many of you have heard about Tavera issue, where the manufacturer was deliberately showing its 'new' cars were not pollutants. Someone lost his Job because of that. It happened in India, nowhere else! See here - Tavera fallout: ARAI seeks more random selection of vehicles and increased frequency of testing - timesofindia-economictimes

[psr]

Re: Engine Oils

Muztariq..Well explained..esp ., about the effect of the Diesel oils on Catcon. A very sharp bump when catcon is hot, a backfire, running rich, all are sure ways to kill a catcon...apart from ageing which cannot truely be specified. I would rather loose the Catcon than my Drive Train due to ZDDP, or the lack of it. I can lean tune the engine an be still within the Smog limits than have an engine failure , resulting increase in pollution and a hole in my pocket.

[Divya Sharan]

Re: Engine Oils

Guys, maintain sanity on the forum. Agree to disagree please!

The thread is getting murkier by the day. Any unwanted namecalling and unnecessary post will be removed!

Sent from my phone. Kindly avoid it while riding.

[psr]

Re: Engine Oils

Xbhp does not promote flaming in threads with Impertinent comments and Personal attacks...If Members prefer to be immature appropriate action will be warranted.

[unnimon]

Need advice on choosing best engine oil

Hai guys ,

I really need your suggestion for choosing a good engine oil for my bike (2014 honda unicorn) . I don't trust the honda service people , they have no respect for a customer . I have been facing some problems form my bike , like the day i bought it . my bike the fuel meter was not working , Till now it's not working after 2nd service too . So now am going for a trip to pallani temple it's about 800km total . My first preference is synthetic oil (motul, castrol or any other premium brands) , currently it's running on honda engine oil and am not happy with it . One of my friend told me to use Motul 300V 15W50 but the recommended grade is 20W40 , if i use 15W50 will there be any problem and am gonna change back to mineral oil . Is there any other synthetic oil's brands better than or most suited for my bike . Kindly help me

THANKS IN ADVANCE ,
DHANUSH

[muztariq]

Re: Need advice on choosing best engine oil

Hai guys ,

I really need your suggestion for choosing a good engine oil for my bike (2014 honda unicorn) . I don't trust the honda service people , they have no respect for a customer . I have been facing some problems form my bike , like the day i bought it . my bike the fuel meter was not working , Till now it's not working after 2nd service too . So now am going for a trip to pallani temple it's about 800km total . My first preference is synthetic oil (motul, castrol or any other premium brands) , currently it's running on honda engine oil and am not happy with it . One of my friend told me to use Motul 300V 15W50 but the recommended grade is 20W40 , if i use 15W50 will there be any problem and am gonna change back to mineral oil . Is there any other synthetic oil's brands better than or most suited for my bike . Kindly help me

THANKS IN ADVANCE ,
DHANUSH

For your machine, Honda Fully synthetic used in CBR 250 would be best. W50 is just too much for it.