Engine Oils

[Honda_CBF]

Yes that's how choke work. Revs just shoots high which i really don't like. Even on my stunner, revs shoots to 3k with full choke. So I only used to pull it out by around half then thumb the starter, rpm comes up to around 1k5. Sweet isn't it . You can also do that, operate starter with right thumb, throttle with wrist movement and operate choke with left hand. And yes, oil film is every where.. Cylinder, piston rings, cam, crank, rockers, bearings, every where but the thing is its not under pressure. Meaning there's 'just' enough oil to start the engine. (called boundary lubrication) But pressurized oil is also needed to keep the metals away from each other with force. (viscousity also plays some role here & with the boundary lubrication) But then, pressurized oil is not enough also, all the additive few page back discussed needs heat to get 'activated' and start working. Bottom line: start by keeping the idle low, even if with choke, but don't let the engine struggle to keep spinning. I mean adjust your choke & throttleing so that it won't exceed 2.5k rpm (I prefer 1.5k rpm if possible) Idle it for some time* (this 'some time' varies from application, I used to idle for 10~20 seconds but now I idle for around a minute) then start riding within lower revs (upto 4k) for a few kms. After that ride like normal (as redline'in and riding near is un-necessary load on engine, and can cause boundary lubrication kinda scenario) All that said, there are people around, using splendour to p220 to alto to safari, they are so ignorant about these.. They crank engine cold, rev them high, beyond redline, using god knows what oil. And there vehicles last pretty long. Eg of few friend's bike/car I know of, hunk ~40k kms, passion 60k , m800 63 k. But they are much much harsh, and full of NVH then they should. EDIT: you are giving credit to wrong person regarding that example

[mayank.travadi]

oh thanks for pointing out that mistake..i kinda forgot to write his name..i'll edit it...well my normal idle at hot engine is 1.4k rpm...i do exactly as u said..my choke lever is hidden on the left side above the engine crank case.

thumbstart with right give throttle and choke with left hand and let it go to 3.8k just for a few seconds and reduce it till i feel engine is ho enough not to stall..the whole choke action hardly lasts for 10-12 seconds for me which is enough i suppose...

hehe my normal riding is restricting the engine to 4k rpm....its kinda embarrassing when u see 100cc bikes just zoom past u when u sitting on a 200cc mil and are going slow..but well safety first and one must ride comfortable and safely...

yea i have seen many people...especially old uncles...they ride hard and care a damn about oil.warm up and all and still have managed to keep the engine in stock condition never opened uptill 1lakh kms...and still running normal...

[paul.1911]

@ mayank.travadi
Don't use the choke if u don't really need it. If bike starts without choke then its fine. My bike doesn't need choke even on cold, it starts at one kick just because its AFR is correct.

I mean no offense to anyone here, what i'm noting down here is a mixture my own knowledge, research, a collection of information & opinion.
Its a myth here that to warm up the engine before u drive, u shouldn't do this. Remember that modern bikes are equipped with catalytic converter which helps environment run clean, a device in the exhaust system that works to burn off unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust stream. A cold engine emits a far higher percentage of unburned hydrocarbons than a warm engine. Unfortunately, the average catalytic converter can’t process 100 percent of unburned hydrocarbons even in the best of times. Importantly, the catalytic converter needs high exhaust temperatures to work properly. Cold engine emitting a high percentage of unburned hydrocarbons. However, an idling engine takes much longer to warm up than a running on-go engine. Think about it: When your engine is idling, it's still producing power, so what difference does it make if that power is being used to move the bike or just scratch its shiny metal ass? Additionally, there are other parts of your bike that also need warming up, like your transmission and wheel bearings, and those don't get any help until you actually get the thing moving.

It doesn't require to lubricate all the parts before u go. Engine oil quality has been improved a lot in a past few decades. Its viscosity always maintains a thin layer of oil in the walls of the cylinder and in all parts too. As soon as u start the bike, the oil pump start pumping the oil in a huge amount of force. So when u start a bike, its enough to countdown 15 seconds before u starts moving lightly. Moreover, we know lean running engine warm up faster than rich running. So then why people used to warm-up engine using choke i.e, with rich mixture??!!

Rich mixture add up more hydrocarbons and thus by idling they are just wasting their energy and polluting the environment just because other things like catalytic converter doesn't start to work until they reach their operating temperature.

Also. things like bearings & gears doesn't wear out in their lifetime even if they are abused very badly.
So, countdown 15 sec and start driving lightly (Just avoid highway speeds and rapid acceleration) for the first 4~5 kms.

[Honda_CBF]

let it go to 3.8k just for a few seconds and reduce it till i feel engine is ho enough not to stall

If I was you, I would have targeted for 1.5k instead of 3.8k rpm. If failed to start then tried for 2k (which I'm pretty sure it will start). Just gives a little peace of mind. Btw, I do know how it feels riding slow, on the extreme left, on an open wide clear road. There were few moment when I was over and under taken by few kids on there motor-less-cycle!!

[B7ACKTHORN]

oh thanks for pointing out that mistake..i kinda forgot to write his name..i'll edit it...well my normal idle at hot engine is 1.4k rpm...i do exactly as u said..my choke lever is hidden on the left side above the engine crank case.

thumbstart with right give throttle and choke with left hand and let it go to 3.8k just for a few seconds and reduce it till i feel engine is ho enough not to stall..the whole choke action hardly lasts for 10-12 seconds for me which is enough i suppose...

hehe my normal riding is restricting the engine to 4k rpm....its kinda embarrassing when u see 100cc bikes just zoom past u when u sitting on a 200cc mil and are going slow..but well safety first and one must ride comfortable and safely...

yea i have seen many people...especially old uncles...they ride hard and care a damn about oil.warm up and all and still have managed to keep the engine in stock condition never opened uptill 1lakh kms...and still running normal...

Yes that's how choke work. Revs just shoots high which i really don't like. Even on my stunner, revs shoots to 3k with full choke. So I only used to pull it out by around half then thumb the starter, rpm comes up to around 1k5. Sweet isn't it . You can also do that, operate starter with right thumb, throttle with wrist movement and operate choke with left hand. And yes, oil film is every where.. Cylinder, piston rings, cam, crank, rockers, bearings, every where but the thing is its not under pressure. Meaning there's 'just' enough oil to start the engine. (called boundary lubrication) But pressurized oil is also needed to keep the metals away from each other with force. (viscousity also plays some role here & with the boundary lubrication) But then, pressurized oil is not enough also, all the additive few page back discussed needs heat to get 'activated' and start working. Bottom line: start by keeping the idle low, even if with choke, but don't let the engine struggle to keep spinning. I mean adjust your choke & throttleing so that it won't exceed 2.5k rpm (I prefer 1.5k rpm if possible) Idle it for some time* (this 'some time' varies from application, I used to idle for 10~20 seconds but now I idle for around a minute) then start riding within lower revs (upto 4k) for a few kms. After that ride like normal (as redline'in and riding near is un-necessary load on engine, and can cause boundary lubrication kinda scenario) All that said, there are people around, using splendour to p220 to alto to safari, they are so ignorant about these.. They crank engine cold, rev them high, beyond redline, using god knows what oil. And there vehicles last pretty long. Eg of few friend's bike/car I know of, hunk ~40k kms, passion 60k , m800 63 k. But they are much much harsh, and full of NVH then they should. EDIT: you are giving credit to wrong person regarding that example

There is enough oil everywhere in the engine mayank, just the fact that overnight it all gets drained to the sump. The reason, why people say not to take off right from start is, there are "hotspots" where in some places of the engine, or a component the oil might have completely drained at the bottom. So when you start in the morning, warm up is necessary in a stationary vehicle just so the oil circulates to these so called "hotspots" and lubricate well.

Now choke isn't a big deal, and in most bikes, at least in kick start in one of my bike VICTOR, the bike won't start the moment I pull the choke and the give throttle at the same time. Just pull in the choke, kick, it just beautifully starts and keeps it idle for say around 1.5 to 2k max, and switch off the choke it idles perfectly, it's been the case with most manual choke bikes, be it any bike. Have you experienced this in kickstart bikes that you open the throttle and kick the starter it won't start. The moment you leave the throttle and start, it will just come to it's idle speed that's where the choke comes in play indirectly, just to clear that blocade.

The parody is since it being a carb and self start, perhaps it's hard to notice the small effects, say old school things, which comes in handy at situations like these. My father to be honest has a 37 year old scooter, Bajaj Cub, I'ver a day see him use choke, we live in Ooty, Tamil Nadu, where rains and colds can get as crazy it can get. But still every morning, he just "slants it indian style" Bang! She comes to life in first crank or most third crank. Old is gold you know!

I'll tell you two simple things.

Use choke, if you bike asks more than three cranks.

Second, never run with choke on, at least in the long run.

Third, darn use that CHOKE. If it's detrimental, why in the first place would manufacturers keep it in the first place. It's just a tool to get the bike started up quicker, saves battery and saves kick energy.

I hope it made it clear for you now


Cheers!
VJ

[christo]

Tapatalk acting crazy, sorry mods.
Post deleted.

[mayank.travadi]

@ mayank.travadi
Don't use the choke if u don't really need it. If bike starts without choke then its fine. My bike doesn't need choke even on cold, it starts at one kick just because its AFR is correct.
.
.
.

I mean no offense to anyone here, what i'm noting down here is a mixture my own knowledge, research, a collection of information & opinion.

So, countdown 15 sec and start driving lightly (Just avoid highway speeds and rapid acceleration) for the first 4~5 kms.

well no i dont use choke if the bike starts in 1 or 2 or max 3 cranks...if after 3 cranks it doesnt start i use choke...and i kinda disagree on the warming up part..i feel its necessary...well the time factor depends on the age of the bike...i have a activa which still stalls after 1 minute warm up...after a proper warm up...the scooter works damn perfect...and theres my pulsar NS which hardly needs a 15-20 second warm up and then it works fine...the thing is warm up helps in proper performance of the vehicle for the whole day...i dont know the scientific reason but its just my observation.....

If I was you, I would have targeted for 1.5k instead of 3.8k rpm. If failed to start then tried for 2k (which I'm pretty sure it will start). Just gives a little peace of mind. Btw, I do know how it feels riding slow, on the extreme left, on an open wide clear road. There were few moment when I was over and under taken by few kids on there motor-less-cycle!!

the company recommended is 1.4K rpm...and at cold start the rpms stay at 1k well from next time i'll try to target 1.5 k rpm at cold which is he perfect idle rpm according to manual...+100 doesnt matter...

well yes i too have faced similar situations...after reading so many accident cases on ownership threads of duke and NS where they are speeding on open road and some god forsaken dog or a stone comes in between and the bike gets screwed...now i prefer to stay in limits...if its a highway i go max to 5.5~6 k rpm....some of my friends taunt..why did u buy a NS..ur purpose would be satisfied by a discover....but whats the point of buying a small bike and upgrading later...i drive slow and later when i want power...i just need to twist my right hand and not empty my bank account :P

There is enough oil everywhere in the engine mayank, just the fact that overnight it all gets drained to the sump. The reason, why people say not to take off right from start is, there are "hotspots" where in some places of the engine, or a component the oil might have completely drained at the bottom. So when you start in the morning, warm up is necessary in a stationary vehicle just so the oil circulates to these so called "hotspots" and lubricate well.

Now choke isn't a big deal, and in most bikes, at least in kick start in one of my bike VICTOR, the bike won't start the moment I pull the choke and the give throttle at the same time. Just pull in the choke, kick, it just beautifully starts and keeps it idle for say around 1.5 to 2k max, and switch off the choke it idles perfectly, it's been the case with most manual choke bikes, be it any bike. Have you experienced this in kickstart bikes that you open the throttle and kick the starter it won't start. The moment you leave the throttle and start, it will just come to it's idle speed that's where the choke comes in play indirectly, just to clear that blocade.

The parody is since it being a carb and self start, perhaps it's hard to notice the small effects, say old school things, which comes in handy at situations like these. My father to be honest has a 37 year old scooter, Bajaj Cub, I'ver a day see him use choke, we live in Ooty, Tamil Nadu, where rains and colds can get as crazy it can get. But still every morning, he just "slants it indian style" Bang! She comes to life in first crank or most third crank. Old is gold you know!

I'll tell you two simple things.

Use choke, if you bike asks more than three cranks.

Second, never run with choke on, at least in the long run.

Third, darn use that CHOKE. If it's detrimental, why in the first place would manufacturers keep it in the first place. It's just a tool to get the bike started up quicker, saves battery and saves kick energy.

I hope it made it clear for you now


Cheers!
VJ

yes i have been extremely carefull about shutting of the choke after i left the choke on for the whole 10 km ride on my activa...infact now i dont take off before shutting the choke...

the activa with the choke on and then a kick comes to life without throttle....yes first it is a slow idle and choke kicks in...but for the NS....if the choke is ON and i thumbstart...the engine stalls...

if i first thumbstart and now if the engine manages to idle very slowly with a feeling its about to stall anytime...i pull out the choke lever and it stalls...

the choke kicks in only with a little throttle...even went to SVC and mechanic confirmed this is the ay u will have to use choke on this bike..

hmmm hotspots....u have very nice words and a good method of explaining..reminds me of that evs subject with biodiversity hotspots...


and well summed up
the manufactures has given the choke...go use it ifu need it...if it was going to damage stuff why wud they give?

[B7ACKTHORN]

...even went to SVC and mechanic confirmed this is the ay u will have to use choke on this bike..

hmmm hotspots....u have very nice words and a good method of explaining..reminds me of that evs subject with biodiversity hotspots...


and well summed up
the manufactures has given the choke...go use it ifu need it...if it was going to damage stuff why wud they give?

You bet Ride safe!

Cheers!
VJ

[muztariq]

There are lot of choke to choke my mind here.. Will save the writing and straight away refer to this link:

Dan's Motorcycle Starting a Motorcycle

[mayank.travadi]

that website is like a bhagwat gita/ quran / bible for motorcycles...browsed thru it many times...but havent read everything carefully

[B7ACKTHORN]

that website is like a bhagwat gita/ quran / bible for motorcycles...browsed thru it many times...but havent read everything carefully

Yes. This guy Dan's supposed to be one slouch couch who helps others too. Just kidding. Hope we get just the info we want and throw the rest, because this is one darn good site.

Cheers!
VJ

[paul.1911]

well no i dont use choke if the bike starts in 1 or 2 or max 3 cranks...if after 3 cranks it doesnt start i use choke...and i kinda disagree on the warming up part..i feel its necessary...well the time factor depends on the age of the bike...i have a activa which still stalls after 1 minute warm up...after a proper warm up...the scooter works damn perfect...and theres my pulsar NS which hardly needs a 15-20 second warm up and then it works fine...the thing is warm up helps in proper performance of the vehicle for the whole day...i dont know the scientific reason but its just my observation....

The question whether to warm up the engine or not is a controversial one. Which company says that in their owner's book?!. You are not living in a -20 to -40 degree freezing temperature like US or Canada, where u would need to warm up. Only 15-20 secs is enough here. Warming up feels good has just become a myth. How a warm up helps in proper performance for the whole day if engine can heats up when you drive.
If machine is old than it doesn't mean it will give starting problem or will need choke. A proper maintenance can take your bike to the factory condition.
I'm living where lowest temperature was 15. and my bike still start at one kick without choke. Just because it is well maintained and properly tuned.
Choke is only required where there is excess cold. and in mumbai u don't even need to wear a jacket. So if your active is asking for choke then it should be checked. Check if u have replaced your spark plug, spark should not be weak, the resistance between plug and coil should be between 4~5k ohms. Air filter & carburettor should be cleaned and properly tuned. Once it is perfectly tuned, it will not require choke and nor it will stall then. I'm sure u r running lean in your activa therefore u r not being able to move forward without warmup. If u try to move forward with choke off the engine stall/dies. So when u warm up it doesn't dies.

[Pinaki]

The question whether to warm up the engine or not is a controversial one. Which company says that in their owner's book?!. ...

p20 , Splendor+ (2010) owner's manual .
My Yamaha manuals (older) recommend choke usage for first start and longer warmups too . I think all owners manuals does include an "starting the engine" chapter . In practice however I admit that the Splendor's engine doesn't seem to like being choked , so I don't use it other than the most cold winter mornings . In all my earlier bikes , I used choke as routine for the first morning start - without even trying otherwise .

...
but if the oil from sump isnt pumped and circulated everywhere then how come its safe for engine to accept rich AFR and rev more?

or is it that there is always some oil on the cylinder walls and it is safe for the engine to rev without load on choke till the engine settles with a good temperature and can idle without stalling? ..

The oil pump is operated by the engine revolutions , so it revs faster and pumps oil quickly at higher revs too . Too slow an engine at startup shall delay oil pressure buildup in the vital areas .
You are right again - all engines have lands & grids build-in to retain some oil in the areas where oil is vital at startup . These few drops of oil never drain back into the sump . This is why , when rebuilding an engine , we have to put oil in certain places during reassembly - so that these areas have oil when the engine is started for the very first time . This also why we can never drain all the oil out of the engine by removing the sump drain-nut during oil changes .

[muztariq]

Use of choke for warming up

here is the copy of Yamaha FZ series bikes user manual describing cold starts and use of choke. It states to turn back the choke halfway while warming up and close fully when engine is warmed up.

[mayank.travadi]

One more reason for engine warm up is that with metal parts warming up..they expand to fit each other better and hence performa better...without warm up riding will lead to minor and gradual damage of internal parts i guess....

ALso my 200NS manual says use choke if bike doesnt start....and then cut off choke when bike can idle easily...and when throttle response is crisp...u can ride...i dont see crisp throttle response till atleast 30 seconds of warm up

also if u have tuned ur bike for perfect AFR ratio...u are surely going to encounter cold start problem....what happens is the AFR ratio is correct for hot engine but when the engine is cold...the AFR ratio isnt perfect and becomes lean(please correct me if i am wrong...this is my understanding) and i have noticed after my bikes service that i was running rich at about 9% CO and the bike performed magnificently...no cold start problem....after service CO% set to 2%(which is perfect mixture) and i have little problems...

@ pinkai sir...i didnt know that oil pump works wrt to the engine rpm...and hence higher rpm means oil distribution quickly...this explains a lot

this link clears up doubts http://www.engihub.com/2010/02/10/ho...ustion-engine/