Engine Oils

[devils_friend]

so is it good to add ZDDP as an extra additive with the oil? My bike is also new with only 4.5 k on the odo hence want to know.

Not required. All the oils have the right amount of components in them to help the oil perform better.

Any top ups is not advisable.

Cheerz!!

[B7ACKTHORN]

so is it good to add ZDDP as an extra additive with the oil? My bike is also new with only 4.5 k on the odo hence want to know.

You can add additives which contains properties of ZDDP etc which are sold separately. But perhaps you can start using with the next oil change if the need be.

Cheers!
VJ

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[NIGHTMARE]

Any alternative for Shell Rimula R4 , unable to find in my city.

[psr]

so is it good to add ZDDP as an extra additive with the oil? My bike is also new with only 4.5 k on the odo hence want to know.

Which oil and Grade are you using ? if the present oil contains ZDDP then no need to add extra....To find out about the additives in the oil you are presently using, Google for MSDS of the oil...ie., on Google search type, oil Make,name and grade + MSDS and hit " Enter "...You will see a PDF document in which look for ZDDP...mostly mentioned as Zinc Alkyl Dithiophosphate.

Any alternative for Shell Rimula R4 , unable to find in my city.

. You can try Rimula R3X which is marginally inferior in keeping engine clean ,and lesser protection, compared to R4.....but otherwise R3X performs well.

[fardeen]

First of all, 15w40 is good enough as per my experience. It is quite viscous. 20w40 would appear more viscous (I dont think my eyes have any viscometer, but you can feel the difference in engine noise and vibrations when you use different grade oils). FS oil (shell ultra 10w40) feels like water in the engine, smooth, light and rev happy engine. Other mineral oils feel heavier.. This diesel engine oil feels heavier than all. Though a very good oil for long drives, but for very short drives (less than 5km/ride) avoid heavy oils.

Delvac 1300 contain lots of detergent - It helps clean the engine better than usual oils.

Delvac 1400 contain lot of ZDDP - This ingredient is a lubricant cum engine protector at high rpms. At high rpms there is a lot of chance of metal to metal contact. This ingredients due to its polarity arranges itself over metal and when two metal come near to each other, this ZDDP layer prevent metal to metal contact. This layer is present even when you drain the engine oil or keep it during the night. When you crank the next day this layer protects the metal parts to come in contact. (Ever seen a Castol Magnatec Ad ?) its ZDDP which they talk about. These clings to the engine like a magnet. Though its not a great technology, every oil (yes, nearly every oil) has it. Racing cars add extra amount for better protection.. But of course, extra is not always better. ZDDP is available off the shelf in many automobile shops like reliance autozone. If you put extra ZDDP in your engine oil and run the engine for 10 mins and drain the oil. The ZDDP layer would prevent engine from siezing for a long duration. Bardhal engine oil additive uses these properties of ZDDP to market their product. There are some videos on youtube called the "no oil run" etc which particularly shows engine running for wxyz kms without engine oil and not siezing. My brother's HH passion's engine got seized after 35 km run without oil (The technician was busy watching a match in which Zaheer khan was hitting sixes some 4-5 years ago, he failed to put back the bolt!)

I made a mistake by not opting for Delvac 1400. Its Delvac 1300 mentioned all over the internet so I bought 5 L of it. Though the engine oil is great in every sense, but I would have loved to have a high ZDDP oil rather than high detergent oil, particularly because the engine in my bike is just 13000 km old and it was only 7-8K old when I started using Delvac 1300 oil.. so, the high detergent level was not required in that young engine which was fed Ultra 10w40 after second service.

Anyways, its one's choice what he want to do to his engine and how he want his ride to respond.

Oh, I forgot to mention that ZDDP is actually a sacrificial layer, the moment metal rubs against this layer, it breaks down. Over prolonged usage the ZDDP levels keeps depleting. So what you started off with doesnot remain when you throw the oil. Hence higher amounts are better. Of course there is another way of replenishing the ZDDP content apart from using diesel engine oil- Frequent oil changes!

Thank you Muztariq for the detailed explanation. This is the post I wanted to get a better understanding.

Precisely. The same way bardhal is marketed by Bajaj folks. They are almost hellbent on using it on all motorcycles due their first service.

When I inquired them about the same, they had no clue what it was, and all they said was it will make your engine smoother.

Well I just wish all these mech folks read this thread regularly.

Is this the engine oil additives that you are talking about from Bardhal?

[B7ACKTHORN]

Which oil and Grade are you using ? if the present oil contains ZDDP then no need to add extra....To find out about the additives in the oil you are presently using, Google for MSDS of the oil...ie., on Google search type, oil Make,name and grade + MSDS and hit " Enter "...You will see a PDF document in which look for ZDDP...mostly mentioned as Zinc Alkyl Dithiophosphate.

. You can try Rimula R3X which is marginally inferior in keeping engine clean ,and lesser protection, compared to R4.....but otherwise R3X performs well.

Or you can try Castrol CRB of course as rightly mentioned by psr Ji for the info you want, If you can't find the oil you want, try sourcing it from fringe areas or from the dealers themselves by sourcing it for you. You just need to ask more people. :thumbup:

Is this the engine oil additives that you are talking about from Bardhal?

Precisely. And there are third party additives out there, the common being 3M etc

But it's basically the same they use termed bardhal.

Cheers!
VJ



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[muztariq]

Don't go beyond shell or mobil in diesel. Why don't you try T rated oils from shell available in any tata svc? Also find delvac if shell is not available, don't downgrade further.

[shoeb2015]

How is -
i) any engine noise (clutter) after it gets very hot (as is usual with 10w30) ? No abnormal noise/Clutter even when the engine is hot.
ii) compression is better or .. . ? Can't say but the engine note at high RPM has changed.
iii) heat is felt on legs @ 20kms fast runs ? Heat has reduced considerably and I think this oil is perfect for summer.
iv) quick cold starts and easy revving as with 10w30 ? Presently I face no problem in cold starts,I usually leave home at 6:00 am and it starts in first kick as usual.
v) Quick acceleration from cold to hot engine ? Engine revs much better than Motul 3000 4t 20W40.
vi) overall fuel efficiency effected ? Very negligible change.
vii) what is the plug looking like ? It is looking as it should !
viii) cost of oil working out cheaper , say running a fill for 2000kms/4mnths ? which size can to buy ? Delvac 1400 costs ~ Rs.290/- per litre,I used the leftover oil after an oil change of my car.

please

My replies in bold.

Overall there is not much change in FE and power/pickup but the real change can be felt easily by the butter smooth gear shifts and decreased engine heat.
And the most important thing- The clutch does not slip.

You got to use it to believe it.

@Muztariq
Thank you for taking the risk of using a Diesel engine oil in your new motorcycle and giving us the confidence to try it out.

[princesirohi]

@ fardeen - Me too .

Yups , I know . Problem is that they say that on the label without appearing for either API or JASO tests . Can you check and tell me if the JASO symbol/badge with certification number is on any of the labels front or back ? it looks like this , the number/year of approval shall ofcourse be different .

With so many oil Brands, Grades, Additives, Standards and Claims,...It is extremely difficult for the un initiated to select an oil which would serve well..from my limited knowledge i would prefer to select an oil on following lines...

1. The oil must be free of Molybdenum Di Sulfide...so called Friction Modifier

2.The oil grade is selected based on Ambient and max Temp likely to reach on real time running..

3. The Oil must have ZDDP of 0.8~1 % to safe guard engine moving parts esp., the drive train which at higher temperatures ,comes under greater stress.

4. The Flash point of oil should be as high as possible, at least 210 C, so that even under severe temperature stress, the oil and additives will not breakdown...

5. The Oil should have high Viscosity Index, and the least possible difference in Kinematic Viscosity between 40 C and 100 c.

6. The oil should have moderate quantity of Dispersant and Detergents, to keep the engine free of deposits, and SLUDGE..

no, there is no badge or certification number...

[sunilyo]

Which oil and Grade are you using ? if the present oil contains ZDDP then no need to add extra....To find out about the additives in the oil you are presently using, Google for MSDS of the oil...ie., on Google search type, oil Make,name and grade + MSDS and hit " Enter "...You will see a PDF document in which look for ZDDP...mostly mentioned as Zinc Alkyl Dithiophosphate.

. You can try Rimula R3X which is marginally inferior in keeping engine clean ,and lesser protection, compared to R4.....but otherwise R3X performs well.

Thank you PSR. I am currently using Motul 5100 (15W50). I did download the Data and safety sheets for this oil but couldnt find any place mentioning ZDDP or Zinc Alkyl Dithiophosphate. I was also looking at the data sheets of 7100 (20W50) and 300V (15W50). it mentions that for protection they use esters that reduce friction.

[psr]

Thank you PSR. I am currently using Motul 5100 (15W50). I did download the Data and safety sheets for this oil but couldnt find any place mentioning ZDDP or Zinc Alkyl Dithiophosphate. I was also looking at the data sheets of 7100 (20W50) and 300V (15W50). it mentions that for protection they use esters that reduce friction.

The Motul range of Gasoline oils don't seem to have ZDDP in them. They have Calcium Alkaryl as dispersant and acid neutralizer.....
Better to select an oil with ZDDP and enjoy the smoothness and safety .

[B7ACKTHORN]

The Motul range of Gasoline oils don't seem to have ZDDP in them. They have Calcium Alkaryl as dispersant and acid neutralizer.....
Better to select an oil with ZDDP and enjoy the smoothness and safety .

Spot on Psr Ji. One more doubt, happen to drop by a friend's shop today. He had this Valvoline Multgrade 15w50 at RS 1138 is it usable in our bikes? Yet to see the MSD sheet of this, but any pointers?

Cheers!
VJ

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[madhav krishna]

Lot of discussions going on the thread regarding ZDDP . Anyways its been close to 1000kms since I have moved to shell rimula R3. The oil is as good as new. No clutch issues & no signs of overheating yet. Theres not much difference in the mileage it is hovering over the 40+ mark. The engine seems to like the oil.

@PSRji, Recently I was having a look at the video posted by sarban. Does the R3 have any additives to protect the gear since diesel engines usually have a separate compartment for gear oil & is it fine if i continue with the oil for further oil changes or should I revert back to any normal bike oil as muztariq said by occasionally using the diesel oil for cleaning of the engine?

[Pinaki]

no, there is no badge or certification number...

Then the oil has not been tested and certified by JASO for the MA classification . We have to accept Shell's claim that it meets or exceeds all specifications needed to qualify for a JASO-MA qualified oil . Same about it's API rating too . It does not mean that the oil isn't good or it doesn't meet the specs it claims to , it may well do . But as even the cheap 10w30 oil made by tide-water oil for Hero is JASO MA certified ( and carries the badge ), it's a mystery why big international oil corporations like shell-oil , exxon-mobil , motul , british-petroleum-castrol etc doesn't get the proper certificate to substantiate their JASO / API claims .
To me it would feel like getting treated by a doctor who says that he'd have cleared the medical exams , had he appeared for it .

[psr]

Lot of discussions going on the thread regarding ZDDP . Anyways its been close to 1000kms since I have moved to shell rimula R3. The oil is as good as new. No clutch issues & no signs of overheating yet. Theres not much difference in the mileage it is hovering over the 40+ mark. The engine seems to like the oil.

@PSRji, Recently I was having a look at the video posted by sarban. Does the R3 have any additives to protect the gear since diesel engines usually have a separate compartment for gear oil & is it fine if i continue with the oil for further oil changes or should I revert back to any normal bike oil as muztariq said by occasionally using the diesel oil for cleaning of the engine?

Thanks for sharing your experience with Rimula R3X...I am still using it at 900 Kms so far...another ZMA owner had used it after bore work, and had done 2,000 Kms in short time of about a week...he had also said that the oil looks and feel like new AFTER 2,000 Kms, and has only positive things to say.....I myself had filled a NEW ZMA with R4 recently and again only good reports...While I was sure of the results ,due to my study on the oil's properties, There still remains a 1% doubt about the oil's behavior in Real Life Situation....As for me, I will never go back to any other oil other than Rimula R3X or R4...
The ZDDP is GOOD for all Moving surfaces which need the oil film for continued protection and smooth functioning.....Only in 4 wheelers we have separate gear boxes with heavy duty (70~90 grade ) oils being used... The Rimua R3X and R4 both are Engine Oils, of grade 15w40 with R4 being superior on account of calcium Alkaryl additive as active dispersant...
If you study the MSDS of the Rimula R3X and R4 and see the Viscosity Index and the Kinematic Viscosity at 40C and 100 C , you will notice that the oil is close to a Fully Synthetic oil spec...It is this property which keeps the engine running well with good acceleration and cooling with less noise and durability.
In short, you don't need to move away from Rimula engine oil , unless you face some issues... But do change it at 2,000 Kms of use,even if oil looks and feels like new..